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Is Microsoft Excel an Adequate Statistics Package?

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Re: Is Microsoft Excel an Adequate Statistics Package?

#22
post #10

I disagree. Where I work, we have one person that does all the hedging, price calculations and other financial modeling and he only uses Excel. The only practical downsides to his use of Excel it's that he doesn't have direct database access so we generally need to create the initial reports to give him the data and secondly Excel can only hold a little over 2M rows.

So just to give you an opposing perspective of what you just said: "we have __one__ person that does all...". So apart from the fact he can't access a database appropriately, he's the _only_ person who does this work and none of it is documented or reviewable because that's the nature of Excel. There's some serious operational risk in that. This guy disappears tomorrow and what do you do?

Re: Is Microsoft Excel an Adequate Statistics Package?

#23
post #10

I disagree. Where I work, we have one person that does all the hedging, price calculations and other financial modeling and he only uses Excel. The only practical downsides to his use of Excel it's that he doesn't have direct database access so we generally need to create the initial reports to give him the data and secondly Excel can only hold a little over 2M rows.

>Where I work, we have one person that does all the hedging, price calculations and other financial modeling and he only uses Excel. We used to buy in signals from a company who did their work in Excel. I wrote some scripts to export the data and recalculate it in Python. Almost every month I found errors in their reports and had to ask them to fix it. So I recommend you fight HARD to get someone to reproduce his wor…

Your conclusion is that it was excel causing these errors and you are implying similar errors would not be made in Python. I think it is more because of your experience as a developer why you were able to spot and correct errors.

Re: Is Microsoft Excel an Adequate Statistics Package?

#24
post #18
post #3

Considering Microsoft recent involvment with R I have the crazy hope that future versions of Excel will be shipped with R as a scripting language.

IMO adding scripting to a spreadsheet is a waste of time when R can simply import a spreadsheet, perform whatever operations needed, then spit out another spreadsheet/database/whatever format you want.

Plus, if you use a tool like RStudio or Jupyter, it's pretty easy to see the data as you manipulate it, which is a commonly cited advantage of Excel, with none of the awkwardness of trying to look at cell formulas.

Re: Is Microsoft Excel an Adequate Statistics Package?

#26
Never, ever use Excel for anything other than prototyping, spot-checking data, or as a makeshift GUI while you develop a proper one.

I've seen several financial shops where people were moving millions of dollars around using Excel. IMHO, it's always an indicator of deficient processes and lack of coding skill. Yes, I do know that some clever people use it. They are productive in spite of excel, not because of it.

Your main problem with excel is not that some statistical function is missing, or wrong, or misleading. Sure, that's an issue, but you can live with a few things being wrong if you can detect them and fix them yourself. I'll come back to stats later...

The problem with Excel is it's damn near undebuggable. There's simply nothing in the way of someone making a beast of a calculation, with the flow going all over several sheets. You can even make things circular if you want. The data and the code are all together, mixed up. Was a number in a given cell written there by the VB code, or was it an input? You can use the auditing functions, but chances are you will see a spaghetti of arrows.

It's also non trivial to find differences between different versions. Typically the dude who is using excel has also never heard of Git or SVN, so you will see a load of sheets like "portfolio1" and "portfolio2_new_old" and so on. I don't know if it's changed, but when I was using Excel, the files had code files within them, rather than separate files, like we do with most other languages.

Of course you aren't forced to write crappy spreadsheets, but there's simply a tendency for people who don't code to be a bit messy. But Excel is positively inviting trouble. It's so flexible that anyone under a little pressure will hack in some extra bell or whistle, building up tech debt for future generations. It basically lulls the novice into thinking they can build anything.

Amazingly I've met several people in finance who pride themselves on spreadsheets that stretch over thousands of lines. I remember a billion dollar merger where the analyst in charge of the "modelling" showed me how they reached the line limit (I think that's gone now, so good luck!). It's as if making things complicated justified their salaries, so maybe that's why excel is so popular.

Now, about statistics. If you're doing anything non-trivial, you absolutely do not have space to look at all the individual numbers in your matrices. Just like if you're solving equations on a piece of paper, you need your own symbolism. You need to be able to give things names and see short statements at the appropriate level of abstraction. You probably need to be able to verify the pieces independently, too. So unit tests for various operations, that aren't intruding into the business logic.

Re: Is Microsoft Excel an Adequate Statistics Package?

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Where I work, we have one person that does all the hedging, price calculations and other financial modeling and he only uses Excel. We used to buy in signals from a company who did their work in Excel. I wrote some scripts to export the data and recalculate it in Python. Almost every month I found errors in their reports and had to ask them to fix it. So I recommend you fight HARD to get someone to reproduce his wor…

Your conclusion is that it was excel causing these errors and you are implying similar errors would not be made in Python. I think it is more because of your experience as a developer why you were able to spot and correct errors.

It is absolutely the interface to excel that causes errors. I can take your excel spreadsheet, format cells, add things, change a reference and generally fuck it up and hand it back to you and you would never know. Whereas, if I change a text file then you can see what's changed. Similar errors are much less common in a programming language.d

Re: Is Microsoft Excel an Adequate Statistics Package?

#28

Never, ever use Excel for anything other than prototyping, spot-checking data, or as a makeshift GUI while you develop a proper one. I've seen several financial shops where people were moving millions of dollars around using Excel. IMHO, it's always an indicator of deficient processes and lack of coding skill. Yes, I do know that some clever people use it. They are productive in spite of excel, not because of it. You…

I could've sworn I've seen people who work in the financial and maybe data science industries who've praised Excel to the heavens on HN. Like on the same level as Python, R, etc.

I don't work in finance (or data science really) so I can't comment, but it seems merely a tool to me.

Re: Is Microsoft Excel an Adequate Statistics Package?

#29

Never, ever use Excel for anything other than prototyping, spot-checking data, or as a makeshift GUI while you develop a proper one. I've seen several financial shops where people were moving millions of dollars around using Excel. IMHO, it's always an indicator of deficient processes and lack of coding skill. Yes, I do know that some clever people use it. They are productive in spite of excel, not because of it. You…

[deleted]

Re: Is Microsoft Excel an Adequate Statistics Package?

#30

Let's not forget the time Excel's bad UI contributed to a bombshell paper's faulty evidence in favor of fiscal austerity, probably prolonging the European recession: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-04-18/faq-reinha...

Yeah no, if people who were decided by this paper took it at face value without checking the numbers made sense, it's not an excel ui's fault. As for the others, they would have picked that policy choice with or without that paper.
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