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How the Arab World Came Apart

nytimes.com

21–30 of 341 posts

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#21

tl:dr 100 pages: 1) People are fucking poor and hungry (extreme wealth inequalities) 2) Salafi/Wahhabi (Saudi) funding of islamism 3) Antediluvian hatred between people (it goes, way, way, way farther back than Sykes-Picot)

Do you think Saudi will fall apart?

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#22
post #10

tl:dr 100 pages: 1) People are fucking poor and hungry (extreme wealth inequalities) 2) Salafi/Wahhabi (Saudi) funding of islamism 3) Antediluvian hatred between people (it goes, way, way, way farther back than Sykes-Picot)

Thanks, will read after work. :-) It was surprising. From what I've read, people living for a long time in dictatorships are quite intolerant and hateful. (There were quite a bit of intolerance in East Germany after 1989, too. And examples from Eastern Europe are well known.) If/when the Arab world get rid of the dictators controlling the media and education gets better, they should become more "normal". Or maybe I a…

No, you're just naive in that a community ruled by religious narratives will suddenly jump to democracy. Look at age of enlightenment. They never had one.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#23
post #12

I recommend to read Raphael Patai's classic "The Arab mind" to try to understand. Don't drink the NYT koolaid.

I have checked the book out, and it seems to have attracted a fairly amount of criticism, since its publication.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arab_Mind

I will nevertheless read it.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#24
post #12

I recommend to read Raphael Patai's classic "The Arab mind" to try to understand. Don't drink the NYT koolaid.

Some sources claim the book is racist and not backed by solid research. Any opinions on this? (looking for a good book on the topic).

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like most of modern history: America's fault most recently, but Europe's fault originally.

When Europe dominated the Middle East (and Africa), it was a pretty safe place. Certainly there was hope. Now the entire region is going down the sink. Maybe the problem instead is that Europe _LEFT_ ?

But, but.. Dictatorships! /s

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#26

tl:dr 100 pages: 1) People are fucking poor and hungry (extreme wealth inequalities) 2) Salafi/Wahhabi (Saudi) funding of islamism 3) Antediluvian hatred between people (it goes, way, way, way farther back than Sykes-Picot)

It seems they are missing an important factor, namely 4) the personal, cultural and economical impairment due to the religion of Islam. Nobody has time to thrive when they have to pray five times a day, when almost every thought and action is dictated by an old book and when half of their human potential is hidden in cloth bags.

Islam is unrelated to the emotional and intellectual deficits imposed upon victims of poverty and disenfranchisement -- not only that but I think there's a strong argument in that a task performed five times daily repeated ad infinitum doesn't cause cultural impairment, nor does the age of a given mandate.

Furthermore, I think maximizing for "human potential" is a red herring -- the inevitable end-result is exercising control over a given population to exploit their human potential and TBH that sounds revolting. We should be given the freedom to live our lives out regardless of someone else's small and personal ambitions, including dedicating our lives to practicing Islam.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#27
post #11

I haven't read the article yet but from the introduction I sense a narrative that the current situation is due to the 'illegitimate' second war in Irak? So it's Amerika's fault as usual?

Where do those spare 'k's come from in America and Iraq?

Tons of languages have K's in there, e.g. the Dutch or Germans, but also the Turks, Polish, Swedes or Hungarians.

He's Dutch though.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#28
Ha ha ha ... ha ...

The 'Arab World' was never together. Ever.

All of the 'Anti-American Imperialism' kids here should remember that the bulk of the 'Arab World' is 'Arab By The Sword'.

Arabic is spoken across North Africa, in particular because of Arab Colonialism of the 9th-12th centuries.

Not since then has the 'Arab World' been anything resembling 'together'.

The Turks kept them (and there was not much of them) under the thumb, after that the Europeans tried to maintain some degree of balance, now the Americans.

The most recent and damaging decision by the US was Obama's withdrawl of troops in Iraq. Of course, invading in the first place - but Obama simply by virtue of having 10K soldiers sitting on a base 'behind the wire' doing nothing, could have kept forcing Malaki to play nice with the Sunnis. The moment Obama withdrew, Malaki purged Iraq of Sunnis, and the Sunni tribes decided that ISIS was 'less worse' than their own government and there you have it.

As far as Syria ... this is a function of the 'Arab Spring' more than anything, and I don't think anyone can say anyone else is directly responsible for that. Other than the standard: Assad, Saudis, Iran etc...

Once things stabilize in Syria, maybe things can start to settle down.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#30

Ha ha ha ... ha ... The 'Arab World' was never together. Ever. All of the 'Anti-American Imperialism' kids here should remember that the bulk of the 'Arab World' is 'Arab By The Sword'. Arabic is spoken across North Africa, in particular because of Arab Colonialism of the 9th-12th centuries. Not since then has the 'Arab World' been anything resembling 'together'. The Turks kept them (and there was not much of them) u…

Didn't finish that sentence: 'of course invading Iraq was a huge mistake' ...
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