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Re: undefined

#21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the Bible never speaks out against slavery. Most people, when speaking about slavery, are only aware of American slavery. Slavery in ancient times was generally a very different thing. But yes, it does speak about what was American style slavery, which involved effectively kidnapping and forced slavery: Leviticus 21:16 "Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is sti…

I'm pretty sure that verse allows slavery. It forbids kidnapping and enslaving people, but if someone is born a slave, buying and selling them is fine. Fortunately, I don't have to be an expert on the Bible to argue this point. If the Bible's anti-slavery position was so clear, why did it take almost two millennia for theologians to figure that out? Also, do you really endorse that verse? That is: Do you think we sho…

> Also, do you really endorse that verse? That is: Do you think we should institute the death penalty for the crime of kidnapping?

Let me turn it around: If someone stole you and sold you, or stole your child and sold them for a slave, what do you think the penalty should be? Justify your answer.

Re: undefined

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slavery was present in the US until 1860 or so, and I think the bible was around a little before that time. The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery. I would not assert that the Bible has any connection to its abolition.

Sure, but I got nothing to respond here to - a negative assertion cannot be proved or disproved. Do you have another causal historic explanation for the abolition of slavery? Do you mind providing an academic reference for your view?

The fact that the bible has been around for thousands of years while slavery flourished and continued should be enough evidence. Asking for an academic reference is a bit off here.

Re: undefined

#23
post #2

from the post: "If enough people say something, it must be true, right? No. Check everything, and dare to explore the inconvenient. Perhaps, some of the things you learn might surprise and impress you like they did me. Maybe they will not impress you much. You may be hard to impress and that is OK. Just do not mistake obtuseness for skepticism." Insightful.

Almost everybody believed the world was flat, then they were proved wrong. So many of the objective "facts" in the bible have been proved scientifically wrong and no such inaccuracy should exist given divine input. If god exists and was on Earth then he is very vindictive desperate for destruction and violence, humanities aim should be to destroy him. Thankfully there is no evidence to say he does beyond a book with obvious flaws.

Re: undefined

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I got nothing to respond here to - a negative assertion cannot be proved or disproved. Do you have another causal historic explanation for the abolition of slavery? Do you mind providing an academic reference for your view?

The fact that the bible has been around for thousands of years while slavery flourished and continued should be enough evidence. Asking for an academic reference is a bit off here.

that's not enough evidence. i asked for academic reference, because i don't think engaging an uninformed minority view is fruitful if the person presenting the view didn't bother to learn what views there are out there to begin with. it is better to look to a professional historian - do you expect that I can present something better than they here in the comment section?

Re: undefined

#25
post #2

from the post: "If enough people say something, it must be true, right? No. Check everything, and dare to explore the inconvenient. Perhaps, some of the things you learn might surprise and impress you like they did me. Maybe they will not impress you much. You may be hard to impress and that is OK. Just do not mistake obtuseness for skepticism." Insightful.

Almost everybody believed the world was flat, then they were proved wrong. So many of the objective "facts" in the bible have been proved scientifically wrong and no such inaccuracy should exist given divine input. If god exists and was on Earth then he is very vindictive desperate for destruction and violence, humanities aim should be to destroy him. Thankfully there is no evidence to say he does beyond a book with…

> Almost everybody believed the world was flat, then they were proved wrong.

Is this really true? I mean, I certainly haven't seen any convincing evidence that there was a single broadly accepted model for the shape of the earth before the time in antiquity when not only was it proven to be round, but its size was reasonably well approximated.

Re: undefined

#26
> The bible is critical of the establishment

He doesn't really give many examples.

One of the big ones is the prophet Elijah confronting the king of Israel, Ahab. At that time the kingdom of Judah incorporated Jerusalem and the central temple of Yahweh. Jerusalem was outside of Israel. Also, Israel had tensions with neighbors that bordered it, but not Judah. So Ahab married a Phoenician. Elijah condemned Ahab for allying in a political, cultural and religious sense toward Phoenicia in the north, as opposed to Judah and Jerusalem in the south.

This is only challenging the establishment in a sense. With Jerusalem under Roman occupation, Jesus with a weapon in hand thew money changers out of the temple in Jerusalem.

This is being critical of the establishment, but only to some respect. If the establishment drifts away from reverence toward the temple to Yahweh in Jerusalem, there is much criticism. If it is reverent toward the temple, it is praised. Which one would expect from a religion with worship of Yahweh as its basis.

George W. Bush talked a lot about his relationship with this same god, and was praised by modern evangelicals. Obama has been attacked by Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum, Bill O'Reilly and many fundamentalist Christians as trying to replace Christianity with secular humanism. Google "Obama and secular humanism" if you want to see for yourself. This may be criticism of the establishment, but only to a respect. Its criticism of the establishment if it feels the establishment is being critical of Christianity.

> Biblical characters are deeply flawed

> Just look at king David. The king was confronted by a prophet for murder and adultery! Let this sink in. I cannot fathom how this story was not the first one to be wiped from public records or at least “smoothed over,” if not by David himself then by one of his descendants. If the Bible is in the service of the elite, how does this story benefit the elite?

Because it was written at a time that people would have known of these things. In Ronald Reagan's authorized biography, he initially did not want to mention he had been married and divorced. His biographer went to Nancy Reagan and told her how ridiculed he'd be if he did not at least mention his first marriage, and she persuaded him to include mention of it. It's the same thing - people would remember it.

Go to Youtube and look up "Trump anointed by God". You won't see one, but many fundamentalist Christians talking about Trump. How Trump cheated on his first wife, dumped her, married a younger woman, then dumped her and married a younger wife. How this goes against what they say. But it doesn't matter that he's "deeply flawed" because he has been divinely anointed or whatever.

It's the same thing then as now. Those videos could be shown 1000 years from now in the same sense. Everyone now knows what Trump has done, just like they knew way back then what David had done. It's the same thing.

> The Bible is heralded by a diverse group

His entire argument here makes even less sense than previous arguments.

> the Marxist mythological take on the Council of Nicaea, where supposedly the Catholic Church decided the books and the doctrines for the rest of Christians.

The council of Nicaea did decide the doctrines of all Christians who followed the council of Nicaea. There's a Nicene creed, most of which is a rebuke to various Christian ideas which were considered heretical, such as Arianism. It's true Christian groups exist which don't follow the Nicene creed, but the great masses of Christian churches founded from the year 325 on do follow the Nicene creed. OK, so perhaps there are some small churches in Uzbekistan and China that don't adhere to this creed. What he calls the "Marxist" attitude toward this is correct - most Christians follow the Nicene creed. The Catholic church does, Eastern Orthodox churches do, the Anglican church does, the Lutheran church does etc.

There were many Christian writings of that time. Some are considered canon, some are considered apocrypha. Which are considered which depends on the particular church.

Also, the first Christian gospel written was by Mark. It is the only gospel which does not mention at the end that Jesus was resurrected. In chapter 16 of Mark's gospel, the early versions of it don't mention that Jesus was resurrected. Later versions do have a resurrection mentioned. I won't go into it, you can read about Mark 16 elsewhere if you wish.

> What is it exactly that the Catholic Church changed? How did they manage to teleport all over Asia, collect all the books in languages they did not speak, and change them just right so that our copies today in our museums are in doctrinal matters practically identical? The charge that some group manipulated the text of the Bible for gain makes no sense.

Well I already mentioned Mark 16. When Shakespeare was 46 years old, the KJV was being translated. What is the 46th word of the KJV Psalm 46? Shake. What is the 46th word back in it? Spear. Coincidence, or a little joke done by translators? Who knows.

This argument is a straw man. I don't know of any Marxist texts which claim what he said. Perhaps some instructor he had had a vulgar Marxist take on it, or perhaps he remembers it wrong.

Of course the Catholic church couldn't teleport and change various texts. What it could do is decide what was canon and what was not. It could decide non-bible creeds like the Nicene creed (although that's not saying the creed is exclusively Catholic). It could decide that the gospel of Mark ends with a resurrection even if the original gospel Mark wrote didn't. The Catholic church didn't have to rewrite all documents everywhere, it just ignored the ones it didn't like and made canon what it did like.

The last claim is really a straw man claim. It muddles up a whole bunch of diverse things together, makes it into a straw man, then knocks it down.

Re: undefined

#27
post #4

Many books are interesting and impressive. That doesn't make them divine. After reading this post, I do wonder if the author has read the entire Bible. I haven't, but the parts that I have read ranged from mediocre to abysmal. The Pentateuch has some of the worst verses I have ever seen. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are rife with commands to kill people for trivial transgressions. And the Bible never speaks out against…

It would seem that your desire for a divine book is one that centers on human advancement and academic knowledge. If God's highest desire was for our self-advancement, perhaps the bible might look more like what you described.

Re: undefined

#28

> The bible is critical of the establishment He doesn't really give many examples. One of the big ones is the prophet Elijah confronting the king of Israel, Ahab. At that time the kingdom of Judah incorporated Jerusalem and the central temple of Yahweh. Jerusalem was outside of Israel. Also, Israel had tensions with neighbors that bordered it, but not Judah. So Ahab married a Phoenician. Elijah condemned Ahab for all…

Friend, I'll answer to your last point because it is the most misguided. The Church of the East had its own course independent of the Catholic Church. By the early 13th century they lived under Islam and outnumbered Catholics. Nothing that the Catholic Church did carried any kind of weight East of Antioch. Please read up on Jacobite churches and Timothy I, patriarch of Baghdad. It is good for Westerners to study the history of the Eastern hemisphere - its center was Baghdad, not Rome.

Re: undefined

#29
post #2

from the post: "If enough people say something, it must be true, right? No. Check everything, and dare to explore the inconvenient. Perhaps, some of the things you learn might surprise and impress you like they did me. Maybe they will not impress you much. You may be hard to impress and that is OK. Just do not mistake obtuseness for skepticism." Insightful.

Almost everybody believed the world was flat, then they were proved wrong. So many of the objective "facts" in the bible have been proved scientifically wrong and no such inaccuracy should exist given divine input. If god exists and was on Earth then he is very vindictive desperate for destruction and violence, humanities aim should be to destroy him. Thankfully there is no evidence to say he does beyond a book with…

> So many of the objective "facts" in the bible have been proved scientifically wrong and no such inaccuracy should exist given divine input.

Not sure what you are referring to being disproved. It is true that a person's interpretation of the Bible may be disproved, but I am unaware of any source that has truly disproved the Bible. The same cannot be said for many of the theories that are taken as fact.

> If god exists and was on Earth then he is very vindictive desperate for destruction and violence, humanities aim should be to destroy him.

I can understand why you may think that; however, we have to keep in mind that our viewpoint, as humans, is incomplete and imperfect. Further, we have a very limited view of who God is. That is why we need the Bible - to help us see things as He does. It is simple enough for a child to understand, but it is beyond the ability of scholars with years of study and advanced degrees to fully comprehend on their own.

God is a truly just God. He cannot let sin (going our own way instead of following God's path for us) be left alone. That is why He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross and conquer death. Jesus took the wrath we deserved onto Himself, so that we could be free.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

So, even His justice has mercy mixed in. The one who is "very vindictive desperate for destruction and violence" is Satan, as Jesus Christ states:

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." John 10:10

One reason God waits to finally deal with Satan, is so that others can come into a loving relationship with God:

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

Note: All references are from the NASB.

Re: undefined

#30
post #4

Many books are interesting and impressive. That doesn't make them divine. After reading this post, I do wonder if the author has read the entire Bible. I haven't, but the parts that I have read ranged from mediocre to abysmal. The Pentateuch has some of the worst verses I have ever seen. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are rife with commands to kill people for trivial transgressions. And the Bible never speaks out against…

> And the Bible never speaks out against slavery. Most people, when speaking about slavery, are only aware of American slavery. Slavery in ancient times was generally a very different thing. But yes, it does speak about what was American style slavery, which involved effectively kidnapping and forced slavery: Leviticus 21:16 "Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is sti…

I think your discussion plays exactly into what the thread author was thinking. That the bible is a collection of books bound to their time, but whatever the thread author expected, whether the bible was a collection guided by divine power, or directly authored by divine power, it reeks of severely bounded humanity, it reeks of minds locked in their time.

I think people wanted timelessness. Transcendence. Even something that is not perfectly transcendent and timeless, like an artifact of space travel technology would strike the world into awe, the kind of awe that technologically primitive cultures must feel when they bump by the edge of an severely alien human flying on a helicopter -- a suggestion of an ocean beyond your faculties. A feeling of a turtle in a well.

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