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The end of sprawl

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The end of sprawl

#21

Post by chroma »

angersock wrote: post #20
gcr wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier to get work done or to read some nice books when you're not also swerving to avoid oncoming traffic. Caltrain and Amtrak provide A+ reading experience. Even MTA or PATH are bearable. I rate them a B- if your book is one-handed.

Wouldn't you prefer just to have that extra time to enjoy the book in a cafe, in a park, or in the comfort of your own home?

Yes, but not so much that I'm willing to pay significantly higher rent or mortgage. And many people can't afford life in denser areas.

Re: The end of sprawl

#22

Post by atom-morgan »

greggman wrote: post #16

I'm curious how certain things fit into city living. Examples: Rockband the Game. You can't play that game in an apartment in the city without being a total dick to your neighbors. You can play it in a house in suburbia. Arguably the same is true for the home version of Dance Dance Revolution Another is room scale VR which pretty seems to demand owning a large enough place to have your VR room. Maybe some people can…

To provide a better example, I used to play drums. As much as I'd like to continue practicing, I can't in an apartment complex even if I were to buy an electric kit. The tapping on the pedal would be too much for the people who live below me. This problem, combined with the insane amount of people moving to Atlanta, has me thinking about moving.

Re: The end of sprawl

#23

Post by danking00 »

greggman wrote: post #16

I'm curious how certain things fit into city living. Examples: Rockband the Game. You can't play that game in an apartment in the city without being a total dick to your neighbors. You can play it in a house in suburbia. Arguably the same is true for the home version of Dance Dance Revolution Another is room scale VR which pretty seems to demand owning a large enough place to have your VR room. Maybe some people can…

I wonder what type of cities you've lived in.

I've lived in various parts of Boston, Cambridge, and Somerville and we've previously had rock band and currently have room scale VR (it is, in fact, in use as I write this).

Neither had dedicated rooms but the setup and tear down is manageable. Neighbors never complains about the noise, but we also don't set the bass to room-shaking levels.

Perhaps the most significant difference between my home style in my last ten years and the decade previous (when I was a child/teen in suburbia) is that I share much more space. By pooling four incomes (two six figure tech salaries and two low five figure academia/architecture) we can afford places with enough living space to be comfortable.

It makes sense. When I was a child we at least had four people in our suburban house, but even then, it wasn't anywhere near capacity. With four adults in a four bedroom apartment we get much closer to capacity usage. We also make use of parks, coffee shops, and public libraries (CPL's main branch is beautiful) for more flexible space when necessary.

Re: The end of sprawl

#24

Post by Houshalter »

sotojuan wrote: post #6
Houshalter wrote: post #2

I think sprawl will increase when self driving cars become a thing. Long commutes will be a lot more tolerable, parking a non issue, and the cost of owning a car could be reduced with self driving taxis or busses.

Unless the self driving cars can make an hour commute be half an hour or less, they'll still suck. All you gain is the ability to read, eat, play games, or even sleep during the commute and no one will be comfortable doing that for a few years.

I've gotten more than one response saying that, but I don't understand it. I would find it very enjoyable to read, play games, or sleep during a commute. There's not that much I can't do in a car, that I can do on my couch. Much more enjoyable than spending hours focusing on the road.

If you move further out of the city, you have much cheaper rent and taxes. Saving that much money would make it totally worth it to spend a few hours in a car everyday.

Re: The end of sprawl

#25

Post by roel_v »

greggman wrote: post #16

I'm curious how certain things fit into city living. Examples: Rockband the Game. You can't play that game in an apartment in the city without being a total dick to your neighbors. You can play it in a house in suburbia. Arguably the same is true for the home version of Dance Dance Revolution Another is room scale VR which pretty seems to demand owning a large enough place to have your VR room. Maybe some people can…

First example depends on the quality of the building. I own several well-engineered ones in which you never hear the neighbours except in the worst cases - when having a party with dozens of ppl for example. You hear that ine house over in suburbia as well.

Second one is a size thing, not a building quality. Nit many people have truely 'spare' rooms, you always have to make room for dedicated purposes like this. It remains to be seen if vr rooms will really be a thing, too.

Re: The end of sprawl

#26

Post by Houshalter »

hiphipjorge wrote: post #4
Houshalter wrote: post #2

I think sprawl will increase when self driving cars become a thing. Long commutes will be a lot more tolerable, parking a non issue, and the cost of owning a car could be reduced with self driving taxis or busses.

I don't think the move from the suburbs to the city is a technology issue. There are certainly trade-offs to both of them. The reason a lot of people (especially young people) have been flocking to walkable cities has a lot more to do with self-identity and lifestyle choices than with just merely commuting time. No self-driving card will change that. Keep in mind that the opposite is also true. Self-driving cars make…

People flock to cities now for the same reason they've always flocked to cities - jobs. If you don't need to live in a city to work there, that may make many people move.

And yes young people might prefer to live in denser cities. But when they grow older and have a family, they prefer to move out into a town or suburb.

And beyond that, it's just economics. Cities are expensive. They are inefficient economically. Rent is high, they have higher taxes, and the cost of goods is higher. If you could live outside the city, and conveniently travel there whenever you need to, you could save a huge amount of money.

Re: The end of sprawl

#27

Post by alkonaut »

Houshalter wrote: post #24
sotojuan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the self driving cars can make an hour commute be half an hour or less, they'll still suck. All you gain is the ability to read, eat, play games, or even sleep during the commute and no one will be comfortable doing that for a few years.

I've gotten more than one response saying that, but I don't understand it. I would find it very enjoyable to read, play games, or sleep during a commute. There's not that much I can't do in a car, that I can do on my couch. Much more enjoyable than spending hours focusing on the road. If you move further out of the city, you have much cheaper rent and taxes. Saving that much money would make it totally worth it to sp…

Relaxing during a commute seems only marginally better than driving. What makes a difference is if you can work during the commute, so an entire 8h workday will be 2h commute and 6h work.

In large metropolitan areas most people will end up spending what they can afford on housing, the choice is just between a 1h commute and large back yard and forest/beach within walking distance, versus the city with short commutes and shops/services within walking distance.

You could live in a small flat in suburbia and save a ton, but it doesn't appear to be a popular choice.

Re: The end of sprawl

#28

Post by alkonaut »

mjevans wrote: post #8

I support ending sprawl, but there are factors that drive people to it. (Perceived or real) * Quality of education for their children. * Privacy (space/sound insulation) * Nature (if you move far enough out, then wonder why wildlife 'invades') * Investment (housing shouldn't be, but it is; also rent is too high)

The "let's move where schools are good" is just a self sustaining effect of some sprawling cities. In most countries "inner city kids" or "inner city schools" means the best schools with the richest kids.

If the inner city is attractive then schools will be too.

Not sure if you referred to nature as a net positive or negative? I have a forest an beach nearby (with the commute to suit my very reasonable price point). I think most wildlife is a positive.

Re: The end of sprawl

#29

Post by Symbiote »

danking00 wrote: post #23
greggman wrote: post #16

I'm curious how certain things fit into city living. Examples: Rockband the Game. You can't play that game in an apartment in the city without being a total dick to your neighbors. You can play it in a house in suburbia. Arguably the same is true for the home version of Dance Dance Revolution Another is room scale VR which pretty seems to demand owning a large enough place to have your VR room. Maybe some people can…

I wonder what type of cities you've lived in. I've lived in various parts of Boston, Cambridge, and Somerville and we've previously had rock band and currently have room scale VR (it is, in fact, in use as I write this). Neither had dedicated rooms but the setup and tear down is manageable. Neighbors never complains about the noise, but we also don't set the bass to room-shaking levels. Perhaps the most significant d…

> By pooling four incomes (two six figure tech salaries and two low five figure academia/architecture) we can afford places with enough living space to be comfortable.

I'm surprised people with six-figure salaries are sharing. Is that common?

Re: The end of sprawl

#30

Post by jandrewrogers »

greggman wrote: post #16

I'm curious how certain things fit into city living. Examples: Rockband the Game. You can't play that game in an apartment in the city without being a total dick to your neighbors. You can play it in a house in suburbia. Arguably the same is true for the home version of Dance Dance Revolution Another is room scale VR which pretty seems to demand owning a large enough place to have your VR room. Maybe some people can…

It depends on the design of your building. Good quality apartment buildings, like the steel and concrete one I currently live in, are approximately soundproof. I never hear my neighbors (side, above, and below) and they don't hear me. Same with space -- how much do you think you need such that you can't rent or buy a place with that much?

It seems like you are improperly projecting your limited experience to the general case. Neither sound nor space are inherently a problem with apartments.

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