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NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

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Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#21

Post by kartD »

rsync wrote: post #14
douche wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are most of those scooters 2-stroke or 4-stroke? At that scale, the efficiency and emissions differences could make a big difference.

They're two-stroke. Small engines in the developing world are typically terrible - very dirty, very noisy ... and also cheap and easy to fix.

Don't think so, India is typically 4 stroke because of pollution norms and 4 strokes are more fuel efficient which we're very sensitive to.

Frankly, India's problem can only be fixed by population control. If Sanjay Gandhi hadn't been an idiot and forever poisoned the idea of population control, India would be much better off, especially if we can get the population to around 300M - 500M

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#23

Post by vinalk »

rsync wrote: post #14
douche wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are most of those scooters 2-stroke or 4-stroke? At that scale, the efficiency and emissions differences could make a big difference.

They're two-stroke. Small engines in the developing world are typically terrible - very dirty, very noisy ... and also cheap and easy to fix.

No, almost all two wheeler sold in india are four stroke

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#24

Post by ch4ck »

mikeash wrote: post #13
jessriedel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would probably be much more cost effective for the US to pay Chinese firms to reduce emissions (say, by paying for the installation of more advanced filtering equipment) than it is to try and wring further reductions out of US firms.

I don't see how. Particulates don't persist in the atmosphere that long. I understand a little bit of this stuff makes it across the Pacific, but not a whole lot. Living on the east coast, I'm basically unaffected by it except when I go to China, and most Americans don't do that. If we're talking about reducing CO2 emissions, then yes, further cutting emissions in the US is probably not going to do much good compared…

CO2 emission per capita (2013): USA 16.5 t China 7.6 t

So better turn off your electronic devices etc. NOW.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#25

Post by venomsnake »

mikeash wrote: post #19
mahranch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think his point was that we should loosen our restrictions, but re-direct our attention on the biggest abusers. Right now that's China. And it's not even close. You would need to combine the emissions of the U.S, India and the entirety of the European Union to equal China's annual CO2 emissions. See for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... Basically, China emits as much CO…

We're not talking about CO2 emissions here, we're talking about local pollution such as fine particulates and ozone. I've noticed that discussions about pollution frequently mix up CO2 and other types of pollution. It's weird. If you want to combat climate change, then yes, efforts should be directed at China. But if you want clean air in the United States, then efforts should be directed at the United States, and po…

If the US buys only great for the air products - anyone that sells in US must make them. Once you have the infrastructure in place - it may be cheaper to produce all clean instead of half clean/half polluting.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#26

Post by mikeash »

jessriedel wrote: post #11
mc32 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polluted air is a symptom of a system which has little regulation over industrial and commercial waste. This means that while we suffer from the air, they will suffer from all kinds of water and soil pollution. They are inflicting grave health wounds upon themselves (like we did to ourselves earlier). We can hope the people will demand a cleaner environment from the government and industry.

Polluted air is a symptom of being poor, and making the reasonable trade off between cost and long-term health risks. China doesn't pollute now because they somehow have to learn valuable lessons in democracy; they pollute because they can't afford the same luxuries we have in the US.

That may be the case sometimes, but I doubt it's the case in China, at least not always. Beijing is fairly wealthy these days, yet is still polluted like crazy. The health impacts are enormous. The reason it persists is because the the costs of cleaning it up are concentrated on a few, while the costs of being exposed are distributed among many, and there's no mechanism to push those costs back onto the responsible parties.

India may well be a different story. Either way, polluters should be made to bear the costs of their pollution. Then the correct course of action just falls out naturally. If the pollution is still worth the cost, it will continue. If it's not, it will stop.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#27

Post by mc32 »

jessriedel wrote: post #11
mc32 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polluted air is a symptom of a system which has little regulation over industrial and commercial waste. This means that while we suffer from the air, they will suffer from all kinds of water and soil pollution. They are inflicting grave health wounds upon themselves (like we did to ourselves earlier). We can hope the people will demand a cleaner environment from the government and industry.

Polluted air is a symptom of being poor, and making the reasonable trade off between cost and long-term health risks. China doesn't pollute now because they somehow have to learn valuable lessons in democracy; they pollute because they can't afford the same luxuries we have in the US.

It's not a symptom of being poor. It's more a symptom of growth transitioning away from being poor but not skipping the pollution stage. They could very well grow with modern technology now that it is available and proven --something countries which industrialized earlier didn't have. Not only technology but the knowledge of the effects. Nowadays people don't experiment with radioactive elements in their basement labs the way people did in the early 20th cent. because we know more about those substances and their effects on health.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#28

Post by mikeash »

ch4ck wrote: post #24
mikeash wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how. Particulates don't persist in the atmosphere that long. I understand a little bit of this stuff makes it across the Pacific, but not a whole lot. Living on the east coast, I'm basically unaffected by it except when I go to China, and most Americans don't do that. If we're talking about reducing CO2 emissions, then yes, further cutting emissions in the US is probably not going to do much good compared…

CO2 emission per capita (2013): USA 16.5 t China 7.6 t So better turn off your electronic devices etc. NOW.

We are not talking about CO2 emissions here....

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#29

Post by Daishiman »

hammock wrote: post #22

Dare we suggest that air pollution (the old-fashioned kind) is more important than global warming?

Air pollution is killed with known measures, and it goes away as soon as these are enforced.

Climate change? We have literally changed the climate for the entirety of humanity's future unless we devise a system, whose energy requirements would overshadow practically anything we have ever invented and whose workings we still don't understand, and even so its impact would take decades, at the very least, to be felt.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#30

Post by mikeash »

venomsnake wrote: post #25
mikeash wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not talking about CO2 emissions here, we're talking about local pollution such as fine particulates and ozone. I've noticed that discussions about pollution frequently mix up CO2 and other types of pollution. It's weird. If you want to combat climate change, then yes, efforts should be directed at China. But if you want clean air in the United States, then efforts should be directed at the United States, and po…

If the US buys only great for the air products - anyone that sells in US must make them. Once you have the infrastructure in place - it may be cheaper to produce all clean instead of half clean/half polluting.

Why should the US put all that effort into cleaning up the air in China?

For something like CO2 it makes perfect sense. That has global impact, so emissions anywhere are essentially the same.

But when it comes to particulates and air quality, it's mostly a local problem. Polluting Chinese factories and cars hurt people in China. The Chinese government and people should be the ones making the effort to clean it up. There's no reason for the US to take it on, unless you're suggesting that we do it as some sort of massive charity scheme.

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