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Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

haaretz.com

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Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#21

Post by golergka »

Zafira wrote: post #13
nanna wrote: post #5

Without disrespecting his memory, we should not forget that Wiesel lent serious support to the occupation and, what is effectively, the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem. Haaretz touches on this: "In April 2010, he took out advertisements in four major newspapers, criticizing the Obama administration for pressuring the Netanyahu government to halt construction in Jewish neighborhoods located across the Green Line in…

I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Why is this?

> I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks.

Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic.

> So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance.

Because fight for survival and hostile stance are directly related.

Ask yourself: is average citizen of a country neighboring yours sees you as an enemy? Have he or his parents gone to war against you? Will he help you if you get attacked? Or may he'll be glad to see you die?

Being peaceful and trusting is a privilege that Israel can't afford.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#22

Post by themartorana »

littletimmy wrote: post #14
Aelinsaar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse someone, they wouldn't still be around. Do you not understand how bombs and fire work? You may not like what their restraint looks like, you may argue for much more, but the level of hyperbole you're engaging in is pointless.

Would it sound more reasonable if we say "Ethnically cleanse at the rate that the international community allows"?

No.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#23

Post by edw519 »

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.” - Elie Wiesel

R.I.P.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#24

Post by themartorana »

benjohnson wrote: post #6
bsaul wrote: post #4

curious to read comments about controversial statements from eli wiesel... what coule those have been ??

The one that stands out (for me) is Eli's question after God let the Jews die in the Holocaust - "What is man? Ally of God or simply his toy?''" Eli's question is a continuation of the theological "Problem of Evil": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil As a person of faith, Eli's question is still haunting in it's note of despair.

I've always been amazed people can still have faith after things like the holocaust. I'm agnostic myself, something I'm sure you didn't need me to say... But I don't know if there is a god or gods or afterlife at all - but if there is, I'm pretty sure they don't intervene in our daily lives. Believing he/she/they do is accepting a policy of extreme incompetence, or admitting that our well being isn't always at the forefront.

At least admitting that God does give us free will and does provide an afterlife, but doesn't step in when shit gets ugly in this life (and I mean levels of horrors you would have trouble believing actually exist) allows faith to continue with some acceptance of logic.

But the idea that everything bad is of man, and everything good is of God is a pretty untenable position, it seems to me.

But of course, I am not a man of faith, and my life is pretty good. So these aren't surprising positions I'm sure.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#26

Post by tanderson92 »

golergka wrote: post #21
Zafira wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Why is this?

> I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. > So often it feels like proponents of questio…

> > I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks.

> Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic.

Can you explain this to me please? My roommate (who happened to be Jewish) and I in college always used to talk about this and generally disagreed with the common view. He never struck me as anti-Semitic.

It isn't necessarily a matter of "deserving" a nation state, but of displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so. If it was barren desert I'm not sure it would be such an issue.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#27

Post by golergka »

tanderson92 wrote: post #26
golergka wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. > So often it feels like proponents of questio…

> > I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. > Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. Can you explain this to me please? My room…

> Can you explain this to me please?

In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things.

In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place.

> displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so

Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose of bias.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#28

Post by tanderson92 »

golergka wrote: post #27
tanderson92 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. > Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. Can you explain this to me please? My room…

> Can you explain this to me please? In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. > displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose o…

> In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. > In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place.

You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question.

> Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose of bias.

Or simply disagreement. 'Bias' implies that your perspective is not itself similarly influenced by bias.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#29

Post by YZF »

Zafira wrote: post #13
nanna wrote: post #5

Without disrespecting his memory, we should not forget that Wiesel lent serious support to the occupation and, what is effectively, the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem. Haaretz touches on this: "In April 2010, he took out advertisements in four major newspapers, criticizing the Obama administration for pressuring the Netanyahu government to halt construction in Jewish neighborhoods located across the Green Line in…

I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Why is this?

Israel is a Jewish state. Some feel that it is held up to unreasonably high standards vs. the rest of the world.

Would you call the US aggressive and hostile? Would you call Russia aggressive and hostile? How about China? UK? France? South Korea? North Korea? Iran? Iraq? Lebanon? Turkey? (The list could go on and on)... Are these countries in the same situation you describe, i.e. fighting for their survival?

What exactly is the criteria to be considered aggressive and hostile? What would be a reasonable response to various security threats and hostile actions of others? If you apply that criteria fairly - that's fine. If you single out Israel, and filter the events to suit some agenda, maybe not so fine.

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