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How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

nytimes.com

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Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#21

Post by johnwatson11218 »

TheCowboy wrote: post #7
Mikeb85 wrote: post #5

Personally I love the fact that people try to beat the house. And to play devil's advocate for a second, the fact that consistently winning is even possible should just drive more business.

I feel that the idea, that consistently winning is possible, is partially a myth, but it persists among casino regulars. I know people who do this or have in the past, and the big problem is eventually getting banned from various casinos. It seems rather one-sided to me, but legally they're allowed to ban people for consistently winning.

What about this issue that big winnings would be taxed but you would only be allowed to deduct a certain amount of your losses each year - otherwise people could claim unlimited losses. Even if you had a slight advantage over the house I don't see how you could beat the tax system.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#22

Post by downandout »

For those of you that don't know, the primary character in this piece, James Grosjean, isn't just any advantage player, he is the advantage player. He wrote what is often referred to as the Bible of advantage play - Beyond Counting - and its sequel, Exhibit CAA: Beyond Counting. Both of these books are incredibly hard to find, and when they do come up for sale, often sell for thousands of dollars. Here's a current listing for the original book, at the low price of $1600:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beyond-Counting-Exploiting-Casino-Ga...

Here's a link to his Beyond Numbers blog:

http://beyondnumbers.lvablog.com

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#23

Post by Waterluvian »

mmastrac wrote: post #2

> But when Sun was arrested in 2007 for a $93,000 gambling debt owed to MGM, she vowed revenge What? How is that legal?

Not legal in Canada. Debt isn't a criminal offense. I don't think they can arrest you.

But maybe I'm confusing it for: they can't throw you in jail for debts.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#25

Post by downandout »

olalonde wrote: post #24

> illegal for dice to determine financial outcomes in games of chance That's pretty odd, anyone knows why that is?

It has to do with some quirks in the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, and its interaction with state law. Card Craps is sometimes referred to as "California Craps" because it was invented to sidestep restrictions on the use of dice to determine the outcome of any wager in California tribal casinos. The situation is similar in other states with Indian casinos, which is why this game has spread.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#26

Post by Avshalom »

jly wrote: post #16
the_watcher wrote: post #9

Casino (and gambling in general) benefit from the perception that they can be beaten. It's why they sell card counting books in the gift shops. While they'll shut down anything like card based craps that advantage players can just clean up on, they're generally perfectly fine with professional gamblers who work their asses off to get a slight advantage.

This is not true. They will back you off if they detect you are playing with an advantage and betting any reasonable amount. It won't take long and they are good at figuring it out, if you as a player are maximizing the edge.

Well yes, casinos don't benefit from being beaten they benefit from a a bunch of half assed half drunk hopefuls who have heard they can be beaten.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#28

Post by ferentchak »

TheCowboy wrote: post #7
Mikeb85 wrote: post #5

Personally I love the fact that people try to beat the house. And to play devil's advocate for a second, the fact that consistently winning is even possible should just drive more business.

I feel that the idea, that consistently winning is possible, is partially a myth, but it persists among casino regulars. I know people who do this or have in the past, and the big problem is eventually getting banned from various casinos. It seems rather one-sided to me, but legally they're allowed to ban people for consistently winning.

My grandfather plays a video poker game called Deuces Wild and when the payouts are set just right and you play perfect you have a slightly over 100% payout. He has been playing for over a decade in Mesquite Nevada and has been making a slight profit year after year.

When you add in points rewards you can end up doing ok in free steaks and massages. The casino knows he wins and is fine with it. My guess is that they like the fact that he is willing to try and help people learn how to play perfectly (which is not trivial) and that makes the other customers play more and essentially cover the small amount of profit he makes.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#29

Post by bluecalm »

logicallee wrote: post #17
s_q_b wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will toss you out on your ass for any systemic card counting that actually works, especially the newer blinded player methods.

I'm just generally curious, you seem to know about this area. What are the new "blinded player methods"? I googled that phrase but didn't come up with anything.

I am just guessing but from the name it seems that it's about using one "naive and careful" player to observe the game and count the cards while placing small bets. Once the deck becomes advantageous the "wild gambler" joins and starts blasting huge bets. Of course the first player signaled a good moment to join.

This way it doesn't look suspicious as no one altered their behavior (one early method to detect card counters was to observer changes in bet sizings as the count changes).

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