Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit • Hacker News Board

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#21

Post by illumin8 » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:04 PM UTC

dr_ick wrote: post #17

illumin8 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the full on collapse of the UK banking system, and the mass exodus of financial jobs isn't going to instantly dry up any startup funding in the UK, you're kidding yourself. Large companies in the UK are already announcing their intention to move thousands of jobs to Germany or Ireland.

> full on collapse of the UK banking system Hyperbole much? Stop with the fear mongering. Also, which "large companies" have announced they are moving? Source?

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36623723

"American banks JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley are able to sell to the rest of Europe from London under special "passporting" arrangements. Even before the negotiations with the EU begin, both have said they may need to move staff to the EU to serve their European customers. JP Morgan alone has warned up to 4,000 jobs could leave the UK.

Airbus employs 15,000 people in the UK and chief executive Tom Enders said. "This is a lose-lose result for both Britain and Europe. We will review our UK investment strategy, like everybody else will."

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#22

Post by Scirra_Tom » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:05 PM UTC

x5n1 wrote: post #18

Scirra_Tom wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're pro-small business, then you should be excited about the opportunities we have now. Such as? Please elaborate. One thing we can look forwards to is paying VAT to every EU country individually. That's going to be fun.

Yes right now. This can be fixed without giving up sovereignty. Many things that the EU is supposed to be solve can be solved via individual treaties. There is no need to give away the farm to get small benefits. At the end of the day the world is better off without conglomeration of power. Any of them are a bad idea. Individual treaties for problem points are the way to go.

Conglomeration of power is very useful in some situations. For example, global environmental problems.

Have one conglomerate force everyone to do better. If each country acted independently, each country is incentivised to not think about the bigger picture and act in their own short term interests.

This was my main reason for voting in.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#23

Post by illumin8 » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:06 PM UTC

dr_ick wrote: post #17

illumin8 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the full on collapse of the UK banking system, and the mass exodus of financial jobs isn't going to instantly dry up any startup funding in the UK, you're kidding yourself. Large companies in the UK are already announcing their intention to move thousands of jobs to Germany or Ireland.

> full on collapse of the UK banking system Hyperbole much? Stop with the fear mongering. Also, which "large companies" have announced they are moving? Source?

Regarding the banking system in the UK:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36617969

"UK banking stocks have plunged after Britain voted to leave the EU. Barclays and RBS were among the hardest hit, with their shares sliding nearly 30% at the start of trading before staging a partial recovery. Meanwhile, Morgan Stanley could relocate up to 2,000 London-based investment banking staff, the BBC understands. This could add to fears about potential job losses in the UK financial industry, which employs 2.2m people. Shares in the FTSE 100's five big banks fell 21% on average as markets digested the results of the referendum, with Barclays suffering the biggest one-day fall in its share price. The price eventually recovered to stand 16% down in late afternoon trading. Shares in Europe's other main banks fell heavily, with Germany's Deutsche Bank down more than 13% and France's Societe Generale more than 20% lower. "The UK and European banking system has been hit particularly hard as there was already fears about their health, and now there are worries about the linkages between European and British banks," said Michael Hewson, chief market analyst at CMC Markets."

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#24

Post by Scirra_Tom » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:08 PM UTC

searine wrote: post #20

vonnik wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…

>It was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. As if. It was created as an amalgamation of post-war globalist trade deals. The EU administrative bodies were tacked on later to make it palatable as a governing body. It's not inherently bad that an organization is founded on trade, but don't shit on my plate and call it pudding.

> It was created as an amalgamation of post-war globalist trade deals.

To deincentivise countries going to war with each other...

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#25

Post by coderdude » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:08 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #19

coderdude wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for the grandmother country to break out on its own. I've never had a high opinion of the EU. Mostly because of their ridiculous laws about the internet. I'm happy about this and I hope it works out well.

There is a good chance that Theresa May becomes the next MP, and if she does, British internet will be much worse than anything you can find inside the EU - she already tried cracking down on open internet multiple times. If anything, EU would have protected UK from such stupid ideas.

Like I said, I hope the best for them. You can throw political propaganda at me all day long but I respect them for leaving.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#26

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:09 PM UTC

djschnei wrote: post #12

A bureaucracy in Brussels is hardly necessary to enact simple pan-European tariff reductions. It is necessary, however, to begin building what globalism truly demands: a de facto European government, complete with dense regulatory and tax rules, quasi-judicial bodies, a nascent military, and further subordination of national, linguistic, and cultural identities.

Why should the people of England care what globalism "demands"?

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#27

Post by dr_ick » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:09 PM UTC

illumin8 wrote: post #21

dr_ick wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> full on collapse of the UK banking system Hyperbole much? Stop with the fear mongering. Also, which "large companies" have announced they are moving? Source?

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36623723 "American banks JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley are able to sell to the rest of Europe from London under special "passporting" arrangements. Even before the negotiations with the EU begin, both have said they may need to move staff to the EU to serve their European customers. JP Morgan alone has warned up to 4,000 jobs could leave the UK. Airbus employs 15,000 people in the UK a…

So no companies have announced they are moving. They are evaluating the situation, as any responsible corporation should.

The UK banking system is not about to collapse.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#28

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:10 PM UTC

vonnik wrote: post #14

volatilitish wrote: post #2

As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…

Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…

The EU will make the UK pay a price for Brexit, and rightly so, otherwise all member states would leave and still enjoy the free movement of goods and people.

You make the EU sound like an abusive spouse. "Don't leave me or I'll hurt you!"

Do you believe that if the UK leaves the EU, France and Germany will go to war? If not, I don't see how "created to prevent another world war" is relevant.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#29

Post by x5n1 » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:11 PM UTC

Scirra_Tom wrote: post #22

x5n1 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes right now. This can be fixed without giving up sovereignty. Many things that the EU is supposed to be solve can be solved via individual treaties. There is no need to give away the farm to get small benefits. At the end of the day the world is better off without conglomeration of power. Any of them are a bad idea. Individual treaties for problem points are the way to go.

Conglomeration of power is very useful in some situations. For example, global environmental problems. Have one conglomerate force everyone to do better. If each country acted independently, each country is incentivised to not think about the bigger picture and act in their own short term interests. This was my main reason for voting in.

It can go the other way as well. If you have a large conglomeration of power it's easy for a few people with capital to take over and make all the rules and potentially destroy the environment. See the United States for an example of this, especially in terms of fracking. People who don't necessarily suffer due to bad policy but profit from it.

For instance this quote from the Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_Un... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_Un... "A majority of the EPA's Scientific Advisory Board advised the EPA to scale back proposed toxity testing of fracking chemicals, and not pursue development of tracer chemicals to be added to frack treatments, because of time limitations. Chesapeake Energy agreed with the recommendation."

Conglomerations of power benefit people with power the most. That can be a positive or a negative depending on what policies those people want to pursue.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#30

Post by djschnei » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:11 PM UTC

vonnik wrote: post #14

volatilitish wrote: post #2

As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…

Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…

The EU is a vast bureaucracy, not a "framework for interdependence." You don't need a limitless bureaucracy to prevent war, you need free and open commerce. Otto T. Mallery, a late 19th century liberal, in his “Economic Union and Enduring Peace” states, “If soldiers are not to cross international boundaries, goods must do so. Unless the Shackles can be dropped from trade, bombs will be dropped from the sky.” Are you suggesting that without a central leviathan like the EU, free trade and cooperation is untenable?