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Bootcamps vs. College
21–30 of 449 posts
Re: Bootcamps vs. College
#22I think that both college and boot-camp styles of training have their place. I'd think my default inclination would be to want to hire the CompSci majors to do the deep-scope planning/figuring and use boot-camp hires to do the grunt-work of supporting that vision. It's important to note that this is just my initial inclination. I have no expectation that there won't be instances of boot-camp hires being better than C…
This just isn't how software is built in practice. Engineers make dozens of architectural decisions every day. They may feel like small ones, but over time they add up to a whole lot of surface area. The skills you learn in Computer Science provide a whole lot more context for your decision making when actually building things. Bootcamps, at least from the folks I've interviewed so far, simply don't prepare their gra…
> Engineers make dozens of architectural decisions every day.
> Two really key fundamental knowledge areas if you're goal is to build actually reliable and relatively efficient software.
I would challenge you on this, and suspect that you're looking at a relatively thin slice of developers: can you clarify why you believe this to be the case. As a counter-example, a lot of modern web development is building frontends (mobile or JS), where good code organization matters, but systems architecture doesn't matter so much.
Re: Bootcamps vs. College
#23I think a well-run bootcamp is a better coding education than college computer science. The only thing most grads have on bootcamp people is algorithm knowledge. This is easy to fix. Just teach algos in bootcamp. It really isn't that hard to understand. Ideal bootcamp: -css/html/javascript -angular or any mvvc data mirroring framework -OOP and ntier patterns -Stored Procs/ORM/SQL training -Algos -Webservices SOAP/RES…
How long is a well-run bootcamp? Getting a CS degree takes many, many hours of course work, plus typically a bunch of non-CS course work. I'd think a college grad would (should?) be much better rounded. That depends a lot on the quality of their CS program, obviously. What you describe college grads doing sounds more like a 1-semester high school CS class to me.
Re: Bootcamps vs. College
#24I think a well-run bootcamp is a better coding education than college computer science. The only thing most grads have on bootcamp people is algorithm knowledge. This is easy to fix. Just teach algos in bootcamp. It really isn't that hard to understand. Ideal bootcamp: -css/html/javascript -angular or any mvvc data mirroring framework -OOP and ntier patterns -Stored Procs/ORM/SQL training -Algos -Webservices SOAP/RES…
> The only thing most grads have on bootcamp people is algorithm knowledge.
"Just teach algorithms." Do you have two years to spare to do so? Because I'm a platform engineer and I regularly use the extent of my CS mathematics education to write better code--you'd think this'd just be Ruby slinging, "what sort of math do you need to automate systems", but it ends up being remarkably more than that! But you know what else I use, while doing my day job? I use the lessons from my economics courses. I use the lessons from my sociology courses. I use the lessons from my political science courses. Are you gonna bootcamp those, too? Or are you going to turn out a marginally skilled worker with a worse educational foundation?
The only thing a civil engineer has over a carpenter is physics knowledge. Obviously.
Don't get me wrong: bootcamps are fine for some purposes, but in my experience they (and there are certainly exceptions in that experience, though rare--I'm thinking of a couple mid-career switches here) turn out mostly-employable workers with a shallower improvement curve and a relatively low ceiling by comparison. There are definitely roles for which I'd hire most of the folks I know who've gone into tech via boot camp classes. But, in my experience, those roles tend to be ones that are more junior than I'd other expect for their tenure and unless I need immediate productivity (and why would I be building a pipeline where I need that, but not the wisdom that comes with experience?), I will prefer somebody who is educated and not merely trained. Code and "coding" are stump-dumb simple and filtering for those minor applicative skills would be a disaster. Because I can teach skills, even if it requires an investment of effort on my part (heaven forfend!). I can't, practically, teach how to think.
Re: Bootcamps vs. College
#25> This does not leave bootcamp grads equivalently skilled to university grads. If you want to do hard algorithmic or low-level programming, you’re still better served by traditional CS eduction. Or, if I may suggest, a low-level/algorithmic bootcamp.
I think a low-level/algorithmic bootcamp would be great, and it wouldn't be that hard to make one.
Re: Bootcamps vs. College
#26How is this possible?
I think one key aspect that is missing is that boot camp graduates aren't straight off the barista lineup. I took one at age 28 after having worked in a technical role in finance since undergrad. The average age of my class was probably 29. Beyond just time in the workforce, I had a double major in math and economics with a minor in applied statistics. Had I dropped "Behavioral Economics" and taken "Data Structures" along with some other random course, I could have switched my Econ major to a minor in CS. Many people in my class were of a similar background.
Re: Bootcamps vs. College
#27Bootcamper here, Of course 3 months is going to get you running with a solid basic knowledge of your stuff. In what world would low-level, algorithms and data structures be doable in 3 months? Point is, I don't think Bootcamps and Colleges are comparable. It's like being a woodworker and a forester.. There's a place for each and it's not the same positions... Now, here's my big question: If your interview includes Pr…
It looks like Triplebyte has candidates take a bunch of tests, and then figures out what YC companies they would be a good match for.
Re: Bootcamps vs. College
#28> This does not leave bootcamp grads equivalently skilled to university grads. If you want to do hard algorithmic or low-level programming, you’re still better served by traditional CS eduction. Or, if I may suggest, a low-level/algorithmic bootcamp.
I think it's possible that these things just fundamentally take more time to learn well. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, however.
Judging from my own experience, spending some time through the start of Skiena's Algorithm Design Manual, with a side of Programming Pearls or Practice of Programming, would do wonders and easily outstrip a CS education. I'd say you could do it in less than 200 hours, which is about 3 weeks of dedicated bootcamper time.
Maybe dev-bootcamp should offer an optional extra module?
Re: Bootcamps vs. College
#29I think this misses a huge point: College is a huge factor in social development; This is extremely important not only for developing software on a team, but to developing a healthy lifestyle in and out of the workplace.
Re: Bootcamps vs. College
#30I think a well-run bootcamp is a better coding education than college computer science. The only thing most grads have on bootcamp people is algorithm knowledge. This is easy to fix. Just teach algos in bootcamp. It really isn't that hard to understand. Ideal bootcamp: -css/html/javascript -angular or any mvvc data mirroring framework -OOP and ntier patterns -Stored Procs/ORM/SQL training -Algos -Webservices SOAP/RES…
The bootcamp I went to (app academy) actually had free algorithm lectures for this reason. While it was helpful, I'd say that it's difficult to teach beyond a skin deep level since algorithms can require a math background that many grads don't have. I'd hoping to learn more algorithm stuff on the job (bc I want to work on stuff like computer vision) but to be honest in my 8 months of web dev work I've only had to think about using an advanced data structure or algo once.