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Is Hyperloop the future of travel?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Is Hyperloop the future of travel?

#21

Post by Alupis »

mtgx wrote: post #18

Why not create hyperloops for ultra-fast (yet relatively cheap in volume) trans-Atlantic merchandise shipping? Surely that would be a highly profitable project from the start?

> Why not create hyperloops for ultra-fast (yet relatively cheap in volume) trans-Atlantic merchandise shipping

1) There's very little merchandise that needs to be shipped trans-Atlantic that quickly.

2) Shipping containers are huge and heavy. Transporting a cargo-ship's worth requires a lot of energy, which translates into high expenses.

3) If shipping a cargo-ship's worth of containers, this will become an impossibly long train, nearing 70 miles long (around 18,000 containers per ship, and each container is about 20ft long)[1]

This has been the crux of the hyperloop since inception. The numbers really don't add up to making it more economical than any already existing alternative (even for transporting people). Shipping things via slow boat in a container is surprisingly not very expensive (given you've filled a container with goods, the goods value will greatly exceed your transport costs).

[1] http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21432226

Re: Is Hyperloop the future of travel?

#22

Post by reacweb »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #5

> Except it is really, really expensive. > Mr Musk says the cost of building the route would be in the region of $6bn (£4.1bn), an estimate most agree is extremely conservative. I'm pretty sure that should say "extremely optimistic". Musk's estimate of $6bn is over 10x cheaper than the high speed train line cost for the same route

roads are also expensive and trucks (combined with weather) destroy them very fast. Hyperloop cylinder should be far cheaper than trucks in the long run. I think hyperloop would be useful for amazon to reduce delivery delays.

Re: Is Hyperloop the future of travel?

#25

Post by Intermernet »

Sydney is just about to roll out a new (mostly) sub-terrainian train system [1] which would be an interesting demo for hyperloop tech, except for the large numbers of stops being incorporated into the trip. Despite this problem, the costings should be an example of how much it would cost to build new, tunnel based, infrastructure through similar areas (admittedly, Sydney is mostly soft sandstone).

[1]: http://sydneymetro.info/

Re: Is Hyperloop the future of travel?

#26

Post by manigandham »

This technology has been around for over a century. Remove wheel friction and air pressure as the primary barriers to speed with the pinnacle being maglev in a full vacuum (something that was proposed for 5000mph trains crossing the ocean on the seabed at one point). The Hyperloop concept has relaxed these constraints by allowing for some atmosphere, which also greatly reduces the top speed, but fundamentally it's the same thing. And it's all perfectly possible given enough engineering.

The only real problem is the financial viability of such a project.

Air travel is already very streamlined and inexpensive for crossing big distances and has the advantage of not requiring the infrastructure and real estate that a train needs. Just the land rights alone will quickly balloon the cost into 100s of billions for any sizable project between two major cities that people want to travel between - and until that gets figured out, this will never happen.

The recent news around a startup raising 80M is meaningless because they will waste all that money chasing tech without realizing that they will never be able to successfully lay track anywhere.

Re: Is Hyperloop the future of travel?

#27

Post by usrusr »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #7
jerf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What is Hyperloop? "Hyperloop is a conceptual transport system in which passengers are loaded into pods and fired through vacuum tubes at more than 600mph (1,000km/h).... "Pumping the air out of the tubes reduces resistance, allowing high speeds to be achieved, potentially using less energy than a train."

The journalist is wrong/simplifying See wikipedia [0]: "pressurized capsules ride on an air cushion driven by linear induction motors and air compressors" [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop

Both BBC quotes are in full agreement with the document at http://spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha.pdf . Page 12, "100 Pascals", that's roughly 99.9% of the air removed.

The distinction between "very low pressure" and "vacuum" that is implied by the "hyperloop is not a vactrain" camp is a fantasy.

Re: Is Hyperloop the future of travel?

#28

Post by mentos »

manigandham wrote: post #26

This technology has been around for over a century. Remove wheel friction and air pressure as the primary barriers to speed with the pinnacle being maglev in a full vacuum (something that was proposed for 5000mph trains crossing the ocean on the seabed at one point). The Hyperloop concept has relaxed these constraints by allowing for some atmosphere, which also greatly reduces the top speed, but fundamentally it's th…

I think the difference maker here could be Elon Musk. He has the force of will to make believers out of all of the obstacles (technological and political) in the way.

Re: Is Hyperloop the future of travel?

#29

Post by steffan »

Retric wrote: post #11
Inthenameofmine wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tube would not be evacuated. The train sucks the air in front of it and pushes it around and especially below, creating an air cushion just like an air hockey, further decreasing energy requirement for movement. That way you also get rid of the air evacuation cost.

The tube would be evacuated on earth. Which is why they need a tube in the first place: Mars According to Musk, Hyperloop would be useful on Mars as no tubes would be needed. This is because Mars' atmosphere is about 1% the density of the Earth's.[10][45][46] For the hyperloop concept to work on Earth, low-pressure tubes are required to reduce air resistance. However, if they were to be built on Mars, the lower air r…

> a hyperloop to be created with no tube, only a track

Don't we call that a “train?”

Re: Is Hyperloop the future of travel?

#30

Post by sigmar »

pieter1976 wrote: post #2

Haven't really fast trains (sometimes maglev) inside evacuated tubes been proposed over and over again. Trying to work out what is new here. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

>Trying to work out what is new here.

As with most very large scale projects, PR is the game changer. Elon Musk's backing of the concept and investment into competitive solutions for a hyperloop has created publicity and driven interest. The hyperloop doesn't need to be an innovative technological advancement to benefit society. It just needs to be safe, fast, and cost effective.

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