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The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

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Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#21

Post by erikb »

I have been in China this and last February and feel this article represents the development well. One of the bug strenghts of the US of the last 20 years was the internet dominance. But the western world struggles to get the mobile internet to a point where it should be. On the other hand China's internet grew up with mobile phones. Many people have never owned a desktop computer, maybe only know it from internet cafes. Their first internet access was with their chat app QQ on Nokia phones at a time the first smartphones came up in the western hemisphere (about 2010). Also Chinese people are less concerned about privacy and more open to try crazy new things with their phones. All that together with a locked in marked that can't be overrun by US startups makes China slowly but surely beat the western market.

I certainly miss to pay stuff by phone or add contacts by just scanning their QR Code (without an extra app my iphone can't even add a normal contact from a business card with QR Code, despite the data in that code probably using the Apple created digital business card format).

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#22

Post by erikb »

studentrob wrote: post #5

> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the author plan to move to Shenzhen, one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities, in a country that doesn't have free speech? I agree SZ has the best tech scene in China, perhaps due to its proximity to the freer Hong Kong, which has always been…

I like how people always add the "no free speech" point. Have you ever been to China? When you go there you realize it's not more or less free than our countries. It's just in different areas.

Also I don't think the author means it that literally. He wants to be in this time, not locally close to the development I think. "there" = "The next decade"

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#23

Post by Symbiote »

erikb wrote: post #21

I have been in China this and last February and feel this article represents the development well. One of the bug strenghts of the US of the last 20 years was the internet dominance. But the western world struggles to get the mobile internet to a point where it should be. On the other hand China's internet grew up with mobile phones. Many people have never owned a desktop computer, maybe only know it from internet ca…

I can pay for stuff with my phone in Denmark. The system is widely used, and preferred by many small merchants. I assume the fees are lower.

The UK implements the same system, but there's very little marketing for it. Most people don't seem to know if exists. The little advertising there is, suggests the system is for paying back friends, not businesses. I assume the banks don't want to lose the cut they get from every credit card transaction.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#24

Post by matthewrudy »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #20
matthewrudy wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We use AWS.cn for our service. But found out last week that AWS doesn't actually have a license, and piggybacks on some third party provider in beijing. http://m.baidu.com/news?tn=bdbjbody&bjaid=392506&bjdomain=la...

I think all the western cloud providers work like this; e.g. Azure in China. It isn't really that they can't get a license, but getting a license requires a certain amount of exposure to Chinese law that many western companies can't take on.

I guess that's true. But it wasn't something we'd considered properly.

Gives us more of a reason to move to a Chinese provider for our CN servers.

(This is now simpler as we're standardizing on Kubernetes for deployments, so Kubernetes on AWS.cn vs Kubernetes on Aliyun should be equivalent)

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#25

Post by makomk »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #11
studentrob wrote: post #5

> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the author plan to move to Shenzhen, one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities, in a country that doesn't have free speech? I agree SZ has the best tech scene in China, perhaps due to its proximity to the freer Hong Kong, which has always been…

I've lived in Beijing for the last 8.5 years working in tech. We all thought the last decade was when everything was going to happen, and most of us were disappointed when it didn't. Granted, when I first moved here, the pollution wasn't as bad, the censorship wasn't as bad, but things changed. Perhaps China might start on an upward opening up trajectory again, but it has been closing up since 2008 (great if you want…

It's incredible how closed off they seem to be in general and how little mention it gets in most press coverage of the supposed Chinese miracle. For example, Ian from Dangerous Prototypes wrote a blog post about how difficult it is to import and export goods: http://dangerousprototypes.com/2016/02/04/how-to-china-impor... It's astoundingly bureaucratic and expensive.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#26

Post by sgt101 »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #18
userbinator wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a great article that explains how IP in China works --- it's definitely more sharing-centric than the West: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 If it could be summed up in one sentence, it would be "Everything is a derivative work." Instead of trying to claim complete exclusivity, they implicitly realise that everything someone creates is always built upon the knowledge of others.

> everything someone creates is always built upon the knowledge of others Right. Sure. These are the kinds of beliefs often verbalized by people who never risked their own time and money to solve hard problems and had to face the risk and reality of the Chinese (or others) stealing the results of that effort. Here's the difference, the "R" in "R&D" is the most expensive part. The "D" is cheap. By stealing they get th…

I think R cost is low, creating a poc is about 100th of the cost of a product (a proper product) but the risk of R is huge and therefore it's very hard to sustain and justify.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#27

Post by oakhaven »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #18
userbinator wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a great article that explains how IP in China works --- it's definitely more sharing-centric than the West: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 If it could be summed up in one sentence, it would be "Everything is a derivative work." Instead of trying to claim complete exclusivity, they implicitly realise that everything someone creates is always built upon the knowledge of others.

> everything someone creates is always built upon the knowledge of others Right. Sure. These are the kinds of beliefs often verbalized by people who never risked their own time and money to solve hard problems and had to face the risk and reality of the Chinese (or others) stealing the results of that effort. Here's the difference, the "R" in "R&D" is the most expensive part. The "D" is cheap. By stealing they get th…

What is the hard problem you were trying to solve?

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#28

Post by godbov »

Hondor wrote: post #10

A bit tangential, but something fantastic it mentions is electronic payment. In China it's already like living in the future. Most shops accept WeChat or Alipay. Everything from chain supermarkets down to the old lady selling vegetables on the side of the road. They've really penetrated the market from top to bottom. If you find a shop that does require cash, you can stop a stranger in the street and trade cash for W…

Do you know what their government's position on these currencies is?

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#29

Post by rurban »

erikb wrote: post #21

I have been in China this and last February and feel this article represents the development well. One of the bug strenghts of the US of the last 20 years was the internet dominance. But the western world struggles to get the mobile internet to a point where it should be. On the other hand China's internet grew up with mobile phones. Many people have never owned a desktop computer, maybe only know it from internet ca…

Yes, but the privacy bit is wrong. Chinese as all asians are very concerned about privacy and government spies patrolling and censoring their free internet space.

There are a lot of invite-only app spaces, and you trust the one you see, but not a random internet guy. It's less about politics, more about government track down of "porn" (=prostitution) and corruption.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#30

Post by PakG1 »

studentrob wrote: post #5

> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the author plan to move to Shenzhen, one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities, in a country that doesn't have free speech? I agree SZ has the best tech scene in China, perhaps due to its proximity to the freer Hong Kong, which has always been…

Nitpicking, but Shenzhen isn't one of the world's most polluted cities. Out of China's big four cities, it's the least polluted, and this is a reason why it recently ranked so highly among expats. It is definitely magnitudes less polluted than Beijing and Shanghai.
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