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Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

theatlantic.com

21–30 of 268 posts

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#21
I really don't get why people are trying to manufacture drama over the name of a boat, seriously.

"tyrannical" because a group that got a boat, asked some people what their thought on the matter was, and then said "no that silly"?

"What happened to disapproving of what you name your boat, but defending to the death your right to name it" and now this is infringing on free speech as well?

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#22
I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions of this article. E.g. they propose that voting "probably" works the same way in all other countries as the US. There are plenty of objections to be made against that. E.g. 1) the US being a two party state means that getting representatives which represents the great variety of voter opinions is exceedingly difficult.

2) US elections are so dominated by advertisement, expensive campaigns and donations that there is no way a politician can actually do what they tell voters because at the end of the day they have to satisfy donors otherwise they can't get money to run elections. There has been studies that show American politicians are mainly aligned with the wishes of the rich rather than people who vote on them.

That is just two big points, which makes the US stand out of many other western democracies, and there are multiple others.

My other objection is that Boaty McBoatface, somehow represents the will of the people. No it doesn't. It represent the will of people who bothered to vote on an issue most people likely don't give a dam about. If a choice was demanded of the whole population then Boaty McBoatface would never have won.

Whenever there is an issue most people don't have a vested interest in or think is very important it is likely that whoever wants to stirr up stuff or make some fun are going to win, because nobody else has any incentive.

This is of course a major issue with democracy. When you let people make decisions on things they don't really care about then they will make poor decisions. Democracy shouldn't make everything a choice, but rather be about choosing people you think will make good choices on your behalf.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#23
post #11

The story is more complex than the article says. A Spanish forum (one of the top-40 more visited sites in Spain) voted massively the name "Blas de Lezo" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blas_de_Lezo ) a Spanish admiral who in 1741 defeated a British Army far bigger than his own one. After gaining the #1 position the organization decided to withdraw the name from the polling, causing more controversy about this digital p…

If you believe it would have been outrageous that this man had his name in a british ship, you'll be surprised by the shitstorm that would happen if his name would be given to a spanish ship.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#24

This seems like bad move on the British government's part. Name the thing Boaty McBoatface and reap great PR for years. Edit: Or maybe it's all part of the plan. Let us all down by hinting that they're not using the name, then announce a change of heart. The internet would explode.

I think whatever this ship ultimately ends up being called, it is going to be forever more informally referred to as Boaty McBoatface by anyone who goes near it, or to who has call to reference it.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#25

The author has conflated democracy with voting. Sortition - the selection of Government at random from the citizenry - is a far superior mechanism, and results in a Government that is genuinely of the people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

The reason why nobody has sortition, is because deep down democracy is about being as agreeable as possible to the median citizen. If you have vague feeling that you decided who is prime minister, you are more motivated to pay taxes and fight wars.

The country that gets least tax evasion and most volunteers to army is likely to perform better than anybody else. And so survival of the fittest governments has favored democracy for past three centuries.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#26
First off, this is nothing like how elections work. People are still run by representatives in democratic countries.

Second, everyone, including the government is making it sound as if this is a "terrible name", just because it's out of the framework they imagined it to be. But I think this is a great name and has brought nothing but popularity to the project being done on that boat.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#27
post #2

The solution is simple. Continue calling the boat Boaty McBoatface. Ignore all references to the government's preferred name. They can choose what's painted on the side, but the name depends only on what people call it. If enough people call it Boaty McBoatface its name really is Boaty McBoatface. If your job depends on calling it the government's preferred name then subtly alter the timing of your speech to make it…

This will probably happen anyway. Research ships are manned by researchers (usually of the non-bureaucratic variety) and in my experience are game for a laugh. Regardless of what it gets officially named, this ship will almost certainly be unofficially referred to as Boaty McBoatface by its crew.

(And as another commenter who is familiar with the project internals pointed out - they already do call it McBoatface)

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#28
Why is it undemocratic to not respect the outcome of an online poll? First of all, online polls are never democratic (They are directed to subset of the population - which is pretty obvious when they are hijacked.).

Second - even proper referendums are usually advisory, i.e. the outcome isn't bindnig for legislators. I don't see a democratic problem with that either unless legislators would go against a strong public opinion, repeatedly.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#30

I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions of this article. E.g. they propose that voting "probably" works the same way in all other countries as the US. There are plenty of objections to be made against that. E.g. 1) the US being a two party state means that getting representatives which represents the great variety of voter opinions is exceedingly difficult. 2) US elections are so dominated by advertisement, expen…

> My other objection is that Boaty McBoatface, somehow represents the will of the people. No it doesn't. It represent the will of people who bothered to vote on an issue most people likely don't give a dam about. If a choice was demanded of the whole population then Boaty McBoatface would never have won.

The point is that if it does represent the will of the people and the people in power don't like it, the will of the people will still lose out.

The two party system in the US is a problem, but it turns out it's natural consequence of Democracy. There's no law against other parties, it just turns out that with direct voting in a large country, over enough time, we arrive here with two parties.

If you look at the Democratic party, in 1968 an unfavored candidate was nominated based on votes, and so the DNC decided to institute the concept of super-delegates from thereon out. They did this because letting normal democracy run its course didn't work because the people elected someone the party elites didn't think was the best. The super delegates composed of party loyalists and high ranking party members that could ignore DNC votes. This essentially gave the party more control over who would win and removed voting power from normal people.

In the current election, Donald Trump is doing the same thing to upset the Republican party leadership. The Republicans haven't implemented anything as undemocratic as super-delegates yet, but if Trump wins they might be encouraged to (since it's the type of Democracy-giving-poor-results scenario people in power try to avoid).

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