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Iceland's Water Cure

nytimes.com

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Re: Iceland's Water Cure

#21

Post by drzaiusapelord »

viraptor wrote: post #3
shin_lao wrote: post #2

Can the secret to the country’s happiness be found in its communal pools? If you use suicide rate as an indicator, Iceland doesn't seem to be so happy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

Iceland gets next to no sun November-February, leading people to depression, drinking, etc. It would likely affect you much more than the winter you know from other countries. If anything, the social aspect of going to a hot pool in the winter is likely to keep people from committing more suicides.

If that was true, Iceland's neighbors Norway and Sweden would have similar rates, but they're actually significantly lower and closer to countries like the USA. Iceland also has the highest percentage of people on anti-depressants in Europe. Nearly twice the rate of the EU average to be exact!

I think a lot of these "Isn't Iceland wonderful" articles are poorly sourced pop-science junk designed to get ad impressions. Iceland has a lot of problems and is a much more complex country than many give it credit for. Its not a bunch of elf worshippers living in the forest. They're a complex modern people with all the problems modernity brings. I also believe a lot of people with leftist political beliefs don't want to discuss the downsides of the Scandinavian welfare state as these criticism are, of course, critical of their own personal politics. So narratives that are critical of these politics don't get upvoted on sites like HN and Reddit which are largely left-leaning.

Its also worth mentioning that national happiness is tied very closely with income inequality, not pools. Even then, you can have a high level of general happiness and still have a relatively high suicide rate for reasons not fully understood, but I imagine self reporting of how 'happy' you are isn't granular enough to really tell us very much.

There's an ugly "noble savage" narrative to Icelandic people that I personally find offensive. I wish the media would stop pushing that narrative but I can understand that it gets ad impressions the same way Native American "noble savage" stories were so popular a hundred years ago in the USA. The reality is that both are reductionist and inaccurate and gloss over the very significant negative aspects of both their cultures.

Cites:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/9789264183896-en/03/11/in...

http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/25/why-the-happiest-state...

Re: Iceland's Water Cure

#22

Post by Raphmedia »

ptaipale wrote: post #8
viraptor wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iceland gets next to no sun November-February, leading people to depression, drinking, etc. It would likely affect you much more than the winter you know from other countries. If anything, the social aspect of going to a hot pool in the winter is likely to keep people from committing more suicides.

This explanation of little sun => suicides doesn't work, at least as directly as most would think: Research on seasonal effects on suicide rates suggests that the prevalence of suicide is greatest during the late spring and early summer months, despite the common belief that suicide rates peak during the cold and dark months of the winter season. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_effects_on_suicide_ra...

As somebody that lives somewhere where SAD is a real thing, I can perhaps offer a glimpse into this. During the winter, it's so dark and cold, you get depressed. You stop going out, and you stop socializing. It's not that bad, at least you don't feel so worthless for not going outside since everything is awful outside.

Then spring comes along and everyone starts going outside. The weather is very good now. Everyone is having fun. Everyone but you. You are still stuck inside, afraid to come out, all depressed. That's the point where suicide start to seem like an option.

Re: Iceland's Water Cure

#24

Post by ajmurmann »

vezycash wrote: post #14
saiya-jin wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did car trip around Iceland few years ago in may, having most of inner part still unreachable due to metres of snow. Running tiny Chevrolet Spark in places like Western fjords on their dirt roads with meeting car overy 1-2 hour, good memories. Communal pools could be found in most small villages around, I recall a big one in Akureyri, second largest city (population 18,000). Definitely part of the culture and consi…

>second largest city (population 18,000) Could a SMALL population increase bonding / a sense of belonging amongst countrymen thereby creating happiness?

I would definitely agree with that. In the US large parts of the country seem fairly alienated from each other. Not only do they seem to not be able to relate to each other but often times actively vilify. I have only lived at the West coast which largely seems at odds which some other parts of the country. Parts of the South come to mind immediately. The circumstances people live I seem so very different and thus are their needs and concerns. I rarely meet people who have social bonds to the South who fondly talk about them. I fact that might have never happened. For contrast on Iceland life also send to be very different if you live in Reykjavik rather than I a farm in the rural South East. However, even during my few visits I've heard people talk about how they will go to their cousins farm in spring scabs help with the lambs. I think that that kind of relationship is needed to keep political discussions from resulting in discontent if there is a conflict of interest. That's something that send took be lacking their larger the country is. Originally being from Germany I found my home country to be somewhere I the middle in this regard. There sometimes would be a little bit of conflict between regions but never even close to the almost dehumanizing things I hear in the US.

Re: Iceland's Water Cure

#25

Post by ajmurmann »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #21
viraptor wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iceland gets next to no sun November-February, leading people to depression, drinking, etc. It would likely affect you much more than the winter you know from other countries. If anything, the social aspect of going to a hot pool in the winter is likely to keep people from committing more suicides.

If that was true, Iceland's neighbors Norway and Sweden would have similar rates, but they're actually significantly lower and closer to countries like the USA. Iceland also has the highest percentage of people on anti-depressants in Europe. Nearly twice the rate of the EU average to be exact! I think a lot of these "Isn't Iceland wonderful" articles are poorly sourced pop-science junk designed to get ad impressions.…

Can people who are down voting this please explain edgy? I find the comparison to neighboring counties very ingesting and would like to hear why people disagree.

Re: Iceland's Water Cure

#26

Post by ptaipale »

bramen wrote: post #17
ptaipale wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, it seems that suicide rates correlate poorly with results in research on happiness. For instance, compare the results of Happiness Research Institute to the suicide rates. Some of the countries with highest suicide rates are also the happiest! http://www.euronews.com/2015/07/02/finland-tops-european-cou...

You can imagine an odd pattern might develop where countries that have high suicide rates seem happier because their most depressed people irreversibly exclude themselves from the surveys. I wonder how strong the statistical effect is though.

In the developed countries where suicides are more common, the suicide rate is about 1-2 % of total mortality. I don't think that's enough to have any significant Darwinian impact.

Re: Iceland's Water Cure

#27

Post by turaw »

Augh. Almost 100% unrelated to the article, but:

"There are ramshackle _cement_ rectangles squatting under rain clouds..."

It's concrete [1] not cement. Even the word cementing can mean "settle or establish firmly", which is what happens to the aggregate in concrete. Augh.

[1]: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/12/the-differen...

Re: Iceland's Water Cure

#28

Post by wavefunction »

tikumo wrote: post #11
shin_lao wrote: post #2

Can the secret to the country’s happiness be found in its communal pools? If you use suicide rate as an indicator, Iceland doesn't seem to be so happy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

more suicides means less depressed people walking around, so that could make a happier society.. (suicide boots from Futurama anyone?)

Suicide and suicidal ideation seem to act as a transmittable disease. At least that's what indigenous populations in the US are facing, an epidemic of suicides brought on by the loss of loved ones to earlier suicides.

The flippant comment about a cartoon show is unwelcome from my perspective.

Re: Iceland's Water Cure

#29

Post by pdabbadabba »

turaw wrote: post #27

Augh. Almost 100% unrelated to the article, but: "There are ramshackle _cement_ rectangles squatting under rain clouds..." It's concrete [1] not cement . Even the word cementing can mean "settle or establish firmly", which is what happens to the aggregate in concrete . Augh. [1]: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/12/the-differen...

+1 for the information, but I don't think all the "Augh"s are warranted.

One of the widely accepted, dictionary definitions of "cement" is simply "concrete." (In fact, Merriam Webster has this listed as definition #1.) I understand that the terms have different technical meanings, but in common English they are simply synonyms.

E.g., http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cement

There may be an opportunity for a Battle of the Dictionaries here, but I think this skirmish in the language wars may be over.

Re: Iceland's Water Cure

#30

Post by turaw »

pdabbadabba wrote: post #29
turaw wrote: post #27

Augh. Almost 100% unrelated to the article, but: "There are ramshackle _cement_ rectangles squatting under rain clouds..." It's concrete [1] not cement . Even the word cementing can mean "settle or establish firmly", which is what happens to the aggregate in concrete . Augh. [1]: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/12/the-differen...

+1 for the information, but I don't think all the "Augh"s are warranted. One of the widely accepted, dictionary definitions of "cement" is simply "concrete." (In fact, Merriam Webster has this listed as definition #1.) I understand that the terms have different technical meanings, but in common English they are simply synonyms. E.g., http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cement There may be an opportunity for a B…

Fair enough :/ it just feels like 'misusing' words is disrespectful to their source, as though a lack of effort was taken to use it 'properly' (air quotes since those are highly subjective terms). In a detached sense, I suppose seeing semantic change [1] in action is neat, but it is still just the tiniest bit depressing.

edit: Ah! Also cool is dental cement [2] which is, as the name would imply, used in dentistry (but without any aggregate equivalent!).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_cement

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