Apple’s Organizational Crossroads • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#21

Post by djloche » Sun, Apr 24, 2016, 11:27 PM UTC

Dwolb wrote: post #9

Osiris30 wrote: post #8

Well argued rebuttal and counter by John Kirk at Techpinions https://techpinions.com/apple-shouldnt-cross-that-road-till-...

Thanks for sharing - I wouldn't have found this otherwise. Is anyone aggregating discussions like this today? NYT has some opinion pieces and shares rebuttals, but I haven't seen long-form opinion aggregators around.

I'd love for a TechMeme style site that sorts and organizes the articles more intelligently ( sort out the articles that just say the same thing without adding anything new, mark and organize responses and followup third party articles as 'informative', 'rebuttal', or 'support', etc.

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#22

Post by Maarten88 » Sun, Apr 24, 2016, 11:29 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #5

Nah. DuPont was selling gunpowder and paint to completely different customers. Apple sells devices and services to the same customers. Furthermore what they are selling needs to be tightly integrated.

Apple Services could be sold to very different customers - those on Android and Windows devices.

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#23

Post by acqq » Sun, Apr 24, 2016, 11:38 PM UTC

The scary example against the "separation" the author suggests is Sony, having the structure where the different profits and loses produced the results where one Sony makes another Sony worse and vice versa.

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#24

Post by williesleg » Mon, Apr 25, 2016, 12:48 AM UTC

Here we go.

Tim Cook really needs to step down.

Nothing innovative out of that place in years. Software is really buggy, in fact, it's almost unusable in the case of the new Apple TV. Cloud stuff is in shambles.

Instead, he thinks he's gonna change how the government works and how their unisex bathrooms work.

How about a real piece of hardware I want to buy?

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#25

Post by PhantomGremlin » Mon, Apr 25, 2016, 3:13 AM UTC

Rexxar wrote: post #17

nocarrier wrote: post #4

This post makes the case that Apple is not organized in a way to allow it to effectively run services like iCloud, iTunes, Apple Pay, etc. I haven't worked there in ten years, but back then at least, I'd agree with that. Teams and orgs were heavily siloed and vertical. However, then it goes on to say a few things that I think are harder to defend. The author talks about how it's hard for Apple to build good services…

The comment was marked as "dupe" but I don't see why so I vouch it. Is it a bug ?

Check the guys comments to see the dupe. He posted the same comment to a separate submission of this article.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11559781

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#26

Post by rmccue » Mon, Apr 25, 2016, 3:41 AM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #16

Is Amazon a good comparison? Amazon Web Services is a separate organization from the consumer side (amazon.com, zappos, etc). As I understand it, the "jewels" (retail/consumer) do depend on AWS...they supposedly are strong on "eating your own dog food". But, they have roughly equal footing and representation. There is the difference that Amazon's services can be sold standalone, rather than just bundled, I suppose.

Amazon and AWS have different markets (consumers vs business), similar to DuPont's paint and gunpowder (consumers vs military). Generally speaking, the markets don't overlap.

As noted in other comments here, Apple's products and services are both consumer-focussed; ideally, you're trying to sell the consumer both of them, so the outcomes for the two are co-dependent. Amazon doesn't really care about how many instance-hours AWS sells; the iCloud team cares a lot about how many devices Apple sells.

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#27

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Apr 25, 2016, 4:19 AM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #19

Osiris30 wrote: post #8

Well argued rebuttal and counter by John Kirk at Techpinions https://techpinions.com/apple-shouldnt-cross-that-road-till-...

Thanks, I hadn't seen that. For what it's worth, I think the rebuttal misses that Thompson wasn't actually arguing for a Services division - he was arguing that if Apple is serious about creating better services, as they are currently claiming to be, then that's what they should do. But that doesn't mean that they should be serious about services! That's basically the same conclusion that is drawn by the article you…

I'm a fan of Thompson, but he's all over the map on this one. The podcast made almost zero sense.

Apple operates one of the biggest consumer services portfolios out there. Little things like iTunes, AppStore, iMessage, photos, find my iPhone, iCloud backup.

I think it makes sense that Apple would align its normal vertically integrated model.

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#28

Post by jmspring » Mon, Apr 25, 2016, 4:40 AM UTC

Maarten88 wrote: post #22

abalone wrote: post #5

Nah. DuPont was selling gunpowder and paint to completely different customers. Apple sells devices and services to the same customers. Furthermore what they are selling needs to be tightly integrated.

Apple Services could be sold to very different customers - those on Android and Windows devices.

This assumes Apple can get their iCloud working properly. I've avoided pings from them in the past because their is no leadership in this area. ICloud has been a failure for multiple years.

I'm not comparing management, but iCloud reminds me of the non-dropcam part of Nest - basically unable to deliver.

I've been contacted by both for roles and just think why would one want to be part of a dysfunctional after thought?

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#29

Post by majestik » Mon, Apr 25, 2016, 5:37 AM UTC

This article makes the case Apple should have a dedicated Services division.

Pretty sure Eddy Cue runs a division called "Internet Software and Services" which is iCloud/Maps/Siri etc: http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/eddy-cue.html

Article: 0 Fact: 1

Re: Apple’s Organizational Crossroads

#30

Post by HNSucksAss » Mon, Apr 25, 2016, 6:40 AM UTC

jmspring wrote: post #28

Maarten88 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple Services could be sold to very different customers - those on Android and Windows devices.

This assumes Apple can get their iCloud working properly. I've avoided pings from them in the past because their is no leadership in this area. ICloud has been a failure for multiple years. I'm not comparing management, but iCloud reminds me of the non-dropcam part of Nest - basically unable to deliver. I've been contacted by both for roles and just think why would one want to be part of a dysfunctional after thought…

iCloud is ridiculously broken, and if you've ever tried to develop for it, you know its API is grossly lacking.

But Apple has always refused to learn. They persist in regressive and amateur-hour policies, like this one: http://goldmanosi.blogspot.com/2012/06/forcing-people-to-use...