Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#21

Post by epistasis » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 1:56 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #17

> The best argument against noncompetes is about freedom > [...] there should be a presumption in favor of preserving people's freedom to join a new company or start one of their own. Alas, as nice as it is to cloth an issue we care about in the language of moral superiority, banning noncompete agreements does in fact impact the freedom of contract. (In the same way, but to a lesser extent, than the ban on being able…

Nonsense. "Freedom of contract" isn't some freedom that supersedes all other forms of freedom.

In fact, freedom from economic coercion due to highly asymmetric power relationships rates quite a bit higher than some silly "freedom of contract" which is way the hell down the list after freedom of personal safety, etc.

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#22

Post by stuartaxelowen » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 1:57 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #14

stale2002 wrote: post #11

Here is the thing about non-competes. If you are smart about it, they can be basically impossible to enforce. If you've signed a non-compete and jump ship, you can simply NOT tell your old employer that you got a new job. What are they going to do? Sue you for working at a company they don't know about? There is nothing they can do if you are subtle.

Don't ever show up to the same meetups? Don't ever post anything on eg your blog?

Seriously, this thread is full of crazy people.

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#23

Post by thaumasiotes » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 2:06 AM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #9

thaumasiotes wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politicians naturally drift to the issues that people will vote over. If the electorate cares about an issue, you'll see political action. In this sense, your parent comment is correct. Obama and hypothetical Romney aren't doing anything about this because it isn't a voting issue.

> If the electorate cares about an issue, you'll see political action. Read the article I linked above and the study it references. That is empirically false.

It's also empirically true. It's very easy to observe votes moving politicians.

Without some argument that this issue is governed by a particular special circumstance, your comment has no substance.

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#24

Post by trhway » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 2:06 AM UTC

non-competes also decrease overall employee productivity and efficiency as it makes employees into drones just keeping their jobs.

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#25

Post by a3n » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 2:07 AM UTC

Non-competes, whether formal and legal, or shady and illegal like Google-Apple, are restraint of trade, suppression of competition. They drive wages down. Nothing to back that up, but why else would sandwich makers be subject to these?

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#26

Post by coldtea » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 2:11 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #17

> The best argument against noncompetes is about freedom > [...] there should be a presumption in favor of preserving people's freedom to join a new company or start one of their own. Alas, as nice as it is to cloth an issue we care about in the language of moral superiority, banning noncompete agreements does in fact impact the freedom of contract. (In the same way, but to a lesser extent, than the ban on being able…

>Alas, as nice as it is to cloth an issue we care about in the language of moral superiority, banning noncompete agreements does in fact impact the freedom of contract. (In the same way, but to a lesser extent, than the ban on being able to sell yourself into slavery.)

Not allowing consensual slavery agreements, consensual beating people to death, etc, also limits "freedom of contract".

That's because we value other things more.

There's nothing sacred about "freedom of contract".

And in most pragmatic cases when an enterprise makes a contract with an employee, there's not much freedom for the side of the employee either.

People always think of star programmers etc who are courted to go to work somewhere and have tons of choices, which are a tiny minority, instead of thinking of the hundreds of millions who need a job to pay the bills, healthcare, etc.

Even when a sector (like IT) does well compared to others, let's see how it goes if there's a bubble bust.

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#27

Post by leohutson » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 2:13 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #17

> The best argument against noncompetes is about freedom > [...] there should be a presumption in favor of preserving people's freedom to join a new company or start one of their own. Alas, as nice as it is to cloth an issue we care about in the language of moral superiority, banning noncompete agreements does in fact impact the freedom of contract. (In the same way, but to a lesser extent, than the ban on being able…

People should perhaps be free to create whatever informal contracts they want between themselves, but there is no "freedom" that entitles them to have their arbitrary contract enforced by the state.

When enforcing those contracts through coercion, the state denies the infringing party some freedom.

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#28

Post by powera » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 2:17 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #16

GlideCleanser wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can simply NOT tell your old employer that you got a new job. You also have to avoid: 1) Telling your old co-workers 2) Mentioning or updating anything on social media. Even if you're not "friends" with old co-workers on e.g. Facebook, that information could still be leaked. 3) Giving any sort of talk where your employment might be leaked 4) Being at an industry event where your employment might be leaked 5) Be…

Whenever anyone at all asks you where you work, you just be evasive. It doesn't matter about any of those, if just as a policy, whenever anyone at all asks where you work, you don't tell them. Or you just talk in broad strokes/industry without specifically mentioning the name, and if your old employer "finds out" that you have another job, they still can't do anything because they don't know the specific employer.

Are you trolling? How is "never telling anyone where you work out of fear of a lawsuit" the smart way to do anything?

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#29

Post by oautholaf » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 2:23 AM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #18

The headline kind of has the valence of government activity backwards, though I agree with its policy proposal. Other states don't restrict job-hopping, they just stand by and don't interfere as the free market ends up having the effect of restricting job-hopping. Employees end up signing restrictive employment contracts, and states don't prohibit them from doing so. California has made a conscious decision that the…

I think your lense of "free market" needs to be supplemented with a little game theory here. If you're an employer, what's your disincentive for tucking in a little non-compete in your contract? None at all[1], especially since many of your prospective employees won't read it or potentially (if you're a low-wage employee) understand it's implications. Then what's the disincentive for an entire industry to do this? None at all. And suddenly, there is no free market for job seekers anymore.

There's a reason why in the US, overwhelmingly contracts are read against the one who drafts them for example. There's an inherent power imbalance here. That's where laws and courts come into balance things out.

[1] To point, it's not uncommon for California-based tech companies to insert non-compete clauses into their contracts, even though they cannot possibly be enforced unless there is some special compensation.

Re: Job hopping helped Silicon Valley thrive. Why do other states restrict it?

#30

Post by grahamburger » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 2:25 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #11

Here is the thing about non-competes. If you are smart about it, they can be basically impossible to enforce. If you've signed a non-compete and jump ship, you can simply NOT tell your old employer that you got a new job. What are they going to do? Sue you for working at a company they don't know about? There is nothing they can do if you are subtle.

At the last few places I've worked I've found that all I had to do was smile as they handed me the non-compete and tell them that I would take it home, read it and return it signed. Then I'd take it home and trash it. The next time someone asks about it (usually every few months) I say "I'm sorry, I think I lost it, could you email it to me again?" and start the process over. I honestly hate to be that passive aggressive about it but I'm not 'rockstar' enough to just say no and expect to keep my job, and I also don't want to limit my future options.