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Open Letter to Debian and Ubuntu Developers

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21–30 of 49 posts

Re: Open Letter to Debian and Ubuntu Developers

#21

I would switch to a BSD if I had his troubles.

I did (for a NAS), and the learning curve (after 10+ years of Debian) is steep . I'm hoping one day I can justify the ~40 hours I've put into wrangling FreeNAS, and then FreeBSD 10 (needed the newer igb driver).

> I'm hoping one day I can justify the ~40 hours I've put into wrangling FreeNAS, and then FreeBSD 10 (needed the newer igb driver).

We'll get the answer in few years :)

Re: Open Letter to Debian and Ubuntu Developers

#23
post #9

I mean, most people don't have that many problems with Ubuntu and Debian boxes, right? My first thought is, what is the author doing that most people aren't? Maybe stop doing that?

I can only speak from experience but the initramfs system seems to be a lot more "fragile" (?) recently? I've had upgrades result in being dropped to the "emergency" shell and not be able to mount the rootfs, like what the author experienced.

I may end up going back to running without an initramfs, at least for VMs that are going to last for more than a day.

Re: Open Letter to Debian and Ubuntu Developers

#24
post #9

I mean, most people don't have that many problems with Ubuntu and Debian boxes, right? My first thought is, what is the author doing that most people aren't? Maybe stop doing that?

The Intel video driver likes to freeze occasionally on Debian 8 when it was never an issue on 7. Can't exactly stop "doing" X.

Re: Open Letter to Debian and Ubuntu Developers

#26
There is a lot going on under the hood in a Desktop Environment to make everything work as you would expect from MS Windows or OSX. Gnome has gotten a lot better in the past 3-4 years. When gnome 3 came out along the same time as Unity, both were a terrible mess. Gnome has come a long way since then. That being said, I dont use gnome. Yes, if you don't understand dbus or systemd or udev or any of the other Linux conventions for that matter, it's going to be frustrating if you upgrade and your system suddenly won't boot. Who uses busybox anymore anyways? I'm not sure how this man's rant got upvoted to the FP of HN. It sure seems like a lot of ignorance and complaining on his part. Systemd has made "managing" or "administering" Linux systems much easier for me and I could in no way see how going back to init scripts could be better or make your system more reliable to boot? An analogy that comes to mind is automotives. Engines and transmissions have come a long ways in the past 20 years. Drive by wire, variable valve timing, direct injection, dual-clutch automatic.. These new technologies come with a learning curve clearly but have definite advantages. I'm not sure why this guy is complaining, if he understands Linux as he claims, he shouldn't be having these trivial problems or much less spending time ranting on the internet. I'm not sure if anyone will take him seriously.

Re: Open Letter to Debian and Ubuntu Developers

#27
post #9

I mean, most people don't have that many problems with Ubuntu and Debian boxes, right? My first thought is, what is the author doing that most people aren't? Maybe stop doing that?

The Intel video driver likes to freeze occasionally on Debian 8 when it was never an issue on 7. Can't exactly stop "doing" X.

That's worthy of a bug report - anything in Xorg.log when the system comes back up?

Re: Open Letter to Debian and Ubuntu Developers

#29

I will say it is awfully annoying to have the Ubuntu boot process freeze because some USB external hard drive didn't initialize it time. Just skip it for god sakes, don't make me have to find a keyboard plug it into the machine just to press S to skip mounting and boot.

This seems to be an odd systemd problem. I'm not sure what makes it decide that this USB drive / SD card / SMB share is so utterly critical that it's worth hanging the boot for 3+ minutes.

A brand new Debian install on an SSD with UEFI can get me to the desktop in about 4 seconds. Please keep it that way.

Re: Open Letter to Debian and Ubuntu Developers

#30
The curse of Free Software. You are root. You can do anything on your own machine. This means that you have the freedom to break it.

The problem with traditional distributions today is that the packaging gives you something, but you are expected (particularly on a server) to take that packaging and then modify your system configuration to suit.

Unfortunately, it's then impossible for the packaging to cover every case on upgrade, since packaging can't possibly know what you did. Suddenly upgrade path code has to magically cover every conceivable use case and more. This route is doomed to fail.

Distributions are working on this problem, but it requires a huge paradigm shift that will leave behind traditionalists kicking and screaming. Take Ubuntu Snappy, for example, with its read-only filesystem and image-based updates. But this sort of thing is the only sensible way forward if you want upgrades to work without failure.

Alternatively, as a user you can take a different course. Make your deployment "immutable", and manage any necessary state independently. In other words, define your deployment as a delta to be applied over the distribution default. If things go wrong, don't try to recover; instead blow it away and redeploy. Manage your delta in version control, and make it easy to test and deploy. This is what the configuration management crowd are doing, as well as the Docker crowd, and just about everyone else.

Of course, this is a little crazy on a desktop system, which is why Ubuntu is doing Snappy.

Or, stick to doing things the traditional way, but don't expect your experience to change.

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