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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#21

Post by maxerickson »

moioci wrote: post #2

Interesting parallel with Lavabit pointed out at the end of the article. Would the DOJ be willing to risk shutting down the biggest and most profitable corporation on earth over this?

I don't think Apple shareholders will go along with shuttering the company, nor will they lose all that many customers over the outcome where they produce a bypass.

(If Apple can't resist the government request, neither can anyone else, only the crankiest of people will punish them for being the test case.)

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#22

Post by AnimalMuppet »

orik wrote: post #3
moioci wrote: post #2

Interesting parallel with Lavabit pointed out at the end of the article. Would the DOJ be willing to risk shutting down the biggest and most profitable corporation on earth over this?

I believe when the government twisted Yahoo's hand and they put up a fight, Yahoo was given a fine that increased exponentially every day they didn't comply. Yahoo would have owed the US gov. a sum equivalent to the GDP by the end of a month.

Could you provide a reference to this? I don't recall what you're referring to.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#23

Post by pchristensen »

kabdib wrote: post #13
smitherfield wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At-will employment does not extend to firing people in order to not comply with a court order.

HR to security engineer: "You're quitting? That's a shame. Um . . . Tim Cook has a beach house he wouldn't mind you using for a while. Can you walk his dog?" My point is, the individuals won't suffer.

"You're quitting? And leaving a hard technical division of the most financially successful and popular tech product of its generation? And your only recourse is the Silicon Valley job market? ... ... We'll miss you but I'm sure you'll land on your feet."

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#24

Post by iamleppert »

I bet none of these engineers have spent a single night in jail. All it would take would be for a judge to send a single one to jail for the weekend, and they'd be happy to quickly bang out whatever the government wanted as soon as possible on Monday morning.

The sentiment is nice, but I doubt the government is worried in the slightest. The government is all powerful and can be whatever it wants, lest we forget.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#25

Post by jnevelson »

iamleppert wrote: post #24

I bet none of these engineers have spent a single night in jail. All it would take would be for a judge to send a single one to jail for the weekend, and they'd be happy to quickly bang out whatever the government wanted as soon as possible on Monday morning. The sentiment is nice, but I doubt the government is worried in the slightest. The government is all powerful and can be whatever it wants, lest we forget.

And this threat right here is exactly why encryption is so important.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#26

Post by kstenerud »

Taking this further down the rabbit hole:

Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail?

And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving competency and capability.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#27

Post by jacquesm »

iamleppert wrote: post #24

I bet none of these engineers have spent a single night in jail. All it would take would be for a judge to send a single one to jail for the weekend, and they'd be happy to quickly bang out whatever the government wanted as soon as possible on Monday morning. The sentiment is nice, but I doubt the government is worried in the slightest. The government is all powerful and can be whatever it wants, lest we forget.

How could they be ordered to do anything if they are no longer employed by Apple? Resigning is a pretty powerful statement, being compelled to work for an employer you no longer want to work for is orders of magnitude worse than anything else suggested in this whole sordid saga to date.

Compelling a company to produce a product is bad enough, let's not add treating people like chattel on top of it.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#28

Post by redthrowaway »

iamleppert wrote: post #24

I bet none of these engineers have spent a single night in jail. All it would take would be for a judge to send a single one to jail for the weekend, and they'd be happy to quickly bang out whatever the government wanted as soon as possible on Monday morning. The sentiment is nice, but I doubt the government is worried in the slightest. The government is all powerful and can be whatever it wants, lest we forget.

I mean, you can always resign. The government can't force you to work for a company. The court order is against Apple, not individual engineers.

I'm sure there'd be a GoFundMe up within minutes that would collect enough money to cover the salaries of a few engineers while the court battle plays out. Afterward, go back to work for Apple.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#29

Post by jacquesm »

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

You're in the territory of outright slavery. That would be a new low on all fronts.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#30

Post by giancarlostoro »

deegles wrote: post #18
plorkyeran wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the FBI then going to make a grab for source code, signing keys, and conscript people to do the work? I think it's become clear that they'd at least try .

Unfortunately I'm sure there are at least a few engineers with the expertise necessary who would happily agree to work with the FBI (for whatever reason.)

Maybe engineers with military history.
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