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SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

shanghaiist.com

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Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#21

Post by analyst74 »

nitrogen wrote: post #17
analyst74 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? I can't believe people actually think this way... organ harvesting by the president?? Han Chinese ethn…

I'm not sure that simply expressing astonishment will change anyone's mind. Are these well-known ideas or something completely new? Can you refute them directly or explain where they come from to someone not familiar with Chinese history and current conspiracy theories?

One does not need familiarity with Chinese history or conspiracy theories to put those claims into the nonsense bin.

But in case it's not as obvious as I see it, here are my assumptions:

- president of China is a public figure

- he is probably not crazy

- most Chinese people are not crazy

- not-crazy people think organ harvesting is really bad

Based on those assumptions (feel free to prove me wrong), he is unlikely to have ordered organ harvesting, and even if he did, it's unlikely he can cover it up.

As to "Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies", I have never heard of it. But if I were to take a guess, he might be referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism, and it has not been a thing for at least several hundred years.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#22

Post by jorgecurio »

nitrogen wrote: post #17
analyst74 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? I can't believe people actually think this way... organ harvesting by the president?? Han Chinese ethn…

I'm not sure that simply expressing astonishment will change anyone's mind. Are these well-known ideas or something completely new? Can you refute them directly or explain where they come from to someone not familiar with Chinese history and current conspiracy theories?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

Jiang Zemin rose to power by using Falun Gong. Jiang was from Shanghai he had no power base to start with when he arrived in Beijing but by cracking down on Falun Gong which were previously supported by the party gave Jiang the security apparatus the tool to consolidate power...as you've seen with Bo Xilai and Zhou Yongkang being President Jiang's camp have all but eliminated under President Xi.

The crackdown of Falung Gong was so brutal that many members of the communisty party, mainly the current Xi's camp, wants to distance itself from the Falun Gong incidents as much as possible and consolidate power by taking out Jiang's people.

In fact former president Hu Jintao was largely powerless, Jiang set through every assembly meeting besides Hu Jintao in order to hold power but many Maoist followers like Xi who had to endure Jiang are now rising up.

Xi enjoys enormous popularity with the anti-corruption movement but it's largely an effort to consolidate power by taking out people previously loyal to Jiang Zemin.

There's a real chance that Jiang Zemin could be tried for genocide in Hague, and the Chinese communist party will do everything it can to keep it's grip on a demographic that is increasingly becoming pro-consumer than ideology.

It's time for China to rid itself of the shackles of ideological fallacies which has been responsible for some of it's worst crisis starting with cultural revolution by a man who is revered as a demigod by President Xi.

I think the Chinese political scene is very exciting...sex, drugs, laundering, murders, scandals, factionalism, regionalism. It's like a real life House of Cards on netflix.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#23

Post by Animats »

The South China Morning Post has had the best English-language reporting on China for years. Both inside and outside China, that was what one read to get some idea of what was really going on. For comparison, read Xinhua.[1] Today's top story: "President Xi calls for structural reform, agricultural modernization". Story #2: "Premier Li urges Guangdong to pioneer reform". Story #3: "Top legislator delivers report on work of NPC Standing Committee". You get the idea. China Daily [2] on China is a bit better. But not much. "China to boost consumer goods quality: minister". "Top legislator lauds enhanced legislation on China's national security". There's also the People's Daily [3], which is the official newspaper of the Communist Party of China. This is literally the party line. Good coverage of the 13th Five-Year Plan and the 2016 National Party Congress.

This is a big loss for China. The USSR suffered from having all the press toe the party line. Even the people running the country didn't have a good overview of what was going on. The downfall of the USSR was a surprise to the leadership of the USSR.

[1] http://www.news.cn/english/ [2] http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/ [3] http://en.people.cn/

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#24

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

0xffff2 wrote: post #18
Spooky23 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, people are starting to flip against globalization more than in the past, and in places like India as well. In the US, the rise of Trump & Bernie are a good example of people having enough with the mainstream political schtick. That threatens China's role as factory to the world, and the cracks that are developing drives more repressive behavior.

What does "flip against globalization" actually mean? Unless people are suddenly preferring domestically produced goods over imports in statistically significant numbers, I don't see globalization slowing down any time soon.

Thomas Jefferson imposed heavy tariffs on imports. This was horrible for the (new) American consumer and raised prices significantly on manufactured goods.

Because people still wanted things like teacups and saucers and clothing, New England began to manufacture those same items within the country, and the rest is history.

Same thing could happen again. If something is too expensive to import, we'll just make our own.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#25

Post by 0xffff2 »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #24
0xffff2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "flip against globalization" actually mean? Unless people are suddenly preferring domestically produced goods over imports in statistically significant numbers, I don't see globalization slowing down any time soon.

Thomas Jefferson imposed heavy tariffs on imports. This was horrible for the (new) American consumer and raised prices significantly on manufactured goods. Because people still wanted things like teacups and saucers and clothing, New England began to manufacture those same items within the country, and the rest is history. Same thing could happen again. If something is too expensive to import, we'll just make our own…

And that worked in the 18th century, but how high would the tariffs have to be to make it economically feasible to manufacture an iPhone in the US? How much would that iPhone cost? I wouldn't be surprised if the answer put iPhones beyond the reach of the vast majority of Americans.

I don't doubt that new wide-ranging tariffs would increase American manufacturing (although we still make a lot of stuff in the US as it is), but I wonder if it wouldn't also lead to a measurable reduction in the American standard of living.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#26

Post by 0xffff2 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #20
0xffff2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "flip against globalization" actually mean? Unless people are suddenly preferring domestically produced goods over imports in statistically significant numbers, I don't see globalization slowing down any time soon.

India: http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/fdi-is-first-develop-india-pm-m... US: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/us-china-trade-reform Europe: http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=62990

Did you really just link a campaign position from Donald Trump of all people as evidence against globalization? Do you have any evidence of an actual shift away from globalization? Trump can talk himself to death, but that doesn't mean that we are actually doing anything to reduce our reliance on China or any other country.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#27

Post by MichaelGG »

jorgecurio wrote: post #8

Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? What country in their right mind that enjoys the security and economic prosperity and trade with other d…

Falun Gong is a superstitious group that promotes the belief in magical powers. Knowing that, China's actions make far more sense (if still unfair). A large group that's irrational to the point of killing people via belief in magic is very possibly a threat.

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#28

Post by pdeuchler »

analyst74 wrote: post #11
jorgecurio wrote: post #8

Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? What country in their right mind that enjoys the security and economic prosperity and trade with other d…

> Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? I can't believe people actually think this way... organ harvesting by the president?? Han Chinese ethn…

not defending the parent, but Falun Gong organ harvesting by the Chinese government is widely considered to be a real human rights crisis by many different countries, the EU, and the UN. It was also admitted by the Deputy Health Minister[0] in 2005.

[0] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/asia/article2612313...

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#29

Post by MrMullen »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #10
jorgecurio wrote: post #8

Who in their right minds would want China to be the global hegemony when they censor free speech, treat people like they are disposable (Falun Gong body organ harvesting by President Zemin), impose Han Chinese ethnocentric ideologies as superior to the world as did Nazi Germany believed their blood made them pure? What country in their right mind that enjoys the security and economic prosperity and trade with other d…

We in the West have the privilege of using our culture of free expression and open communication to create marvels like pizza and burgers, and then oversell these marvels to the Chinese as brands that can never be 100% replicated, like Pizza Hut and McDonald's. China will never be cool. Powerful, but not sexy. Keep being original and interesting, and you will be a part of the winning team.

As the saying goes; "China has Pandas, China has kung-foo, but America invented Kung-foo Panda. That would never happen in China."

Re: SCMP's online presence in mainland China completely wiped out

#30

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

0xffff2 wrote: post #25
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas Jefferson imposed heavy tariffs on imports. This was horrible for the (new) American consumer and raised prices significantly on manufactured goods. Because people still wanted things like teacups and saucers and clothing, New England began to manufacture those same items within the country, and the rest is history. Same thing could happen again. If something is too expensive to import, we'll just make our own…

And that worked in the 18th century, but how high would the tariffs have to be to make it economically feasible to manufacture an iPhone in the US? How much would that iPhone cost? I wouldn't be surprised if the answer put iPhones beyond the reach of the vast majority of Americans. I don't doubt that new wide-ranging tariffs would increase American manufacturing (although we still make a lot of stuff in the US as it…

We don't have to manufacture everything here. It makes sense to do microelectronics in China because of factory network effects. Need a widget? My buddy at the factory down the road can ship you a million by Friday.

But we can manufacture textiles, plastics, metals, and so much more that we grow, extract, and refine here. The only reason China is so competitive is because of ridiculous energy subsidies and an artificially weak currency compared with the US dollar, which is also being artificially strengthened as a generally weak global economy seeks refuge in reserve currencies.

I dress well. I am currently wearing a designer shirt made in Pennsylvania. It cost me about 20% more than designer shirts made in China. If all shirts of similar quality were raised to that price due to tariffs, it would only marginally affect my buying habits.

A $120 price tag is not a big deterrent for someone who buys similar shirts for $100. I just want to look good. And right now, I do.

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