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Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

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Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#21

Post by toomuchtodo »

tdicola wrote: post #13
toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that's illegal, and doing so en masse is going to spark Congressional hearings.

Corporations have perfected layoffs done in such a trickle or way as to prevent triggering the WARN act and other legislation. It's sick but just a fact of life. See also how they've perfected dodging taxes in offshore shell companies (and blow off criticism with the line 'we are just following the laws as written').

And I'm supposed to feel bad when raising corporate tax rates are discussed.

Sometimes, I'm quite the fan of China taking its executives out and executing them for breaking the law.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#22

Post by mattzito »

rdtsc wrote: post #11

That is a good sign. It means the ship is slowly turning around. It sucks for the employees being laid off, no doubt. However they have to do this. There is no other way. They bet big on support and services in early 2000s. So they have lots of those employees. Could they all start to learn new things adapt to the new environment, yeah, some will but not everyone will. Heck, if they didn't lay off people, they'd stil…

See, these types of comments are (again) why people have negative opinions towards silicon valley types.

You may be right, but a good sign for whom, exactly? For the people who lost their jobs? For shareholders? For fans of IBM the company?

Sure, yes, I agree that IBM probably has to shed people in order to stay competitive. However, it's not the fault of the people who are being affected by this, as by and large they were not responsible for IBM's decision to get more and more into support and services.

(an aside: it's not clear those are the people being affected, I'm just responding to the parent comment)

Instead, I would say a better discussion is: why is it that when IBM made a bet that did not play out, that they have cut people's severance benefits signifcantly? Why is it that we treat this as a necessary evil, instead of something to be disappointed about? Why are we not holding IBM up to be responsible for the well-being of their workers?

I'm not arguing that this isn't something that IBM should have done. I am arguing that we shouldn't talk about layoffs as a "good sign", and I think we should try to keep in mind the lives of the people affected.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#23

Post by rdtsc »

adventured wrote: post #4
mark_l_watson wrote: post #2

That is awful. I wonder how much of this is cursed by the bet everything on IBM Watson strategy that I have read about. Are they laying off non-Watson staff?

It's the consequence of their bet everything on services approach while the global economy stalls out. Simultaneously they gutted the technology side of their company and vastly under-invested in R&D/innovation, instead choosing to focus on financial engineering to fake earnings per share growth. They should have been at the forefront of cloud services, with a business as large as what AWS is. Instead, they spent the…

> It's the consequence of their bet everything on services approach while the global economy stalls out.

Yeah that was their strategy the last 10 maybe 15 years. That doesn't work anymore. They have to change. It certainly sucks for folks who work in services, but I can't see IBM doing well keeping tens of thousands of people trained in that until retirement just to provide jobs or to be "nice".

I understand it has been around for more than a 100 years. At some point large swaths of people had to be laid off, just because of the changing business landscape. I would guess when they switched to mainframes from mechanical tabulators, some people had to be let go.

> Their financial engineering was so good, they even snookered Warren Buffett, likely ultimately costing his shareholders billions in losses.

Hmm, not sure, I don't think Buffett is easily snookered, he is not an amateur investor.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#24

Post by sk5t »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7
adventured wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the consequence of their bet everything on services approach while the global economy stalls out. Simultaneously they gutted the technology side of their company and vastly under-invested in R&D/innovation, instead choosing to focus on financial engineering to fake earnings per share growth. They should have been at the forefront of cloud services, with a business as large as what AWS is. Instead, they spent the…

Maybe I'm not understanding your comment, but according to Forbes[1], IBM is prominent in cloud services and exceeds AWS in revenue. It sounds as though IBM's doing things right, at least in this space. It may be that in other markets, they've fallen behind or failed to innovate, e.g. the vast mobile market. 1. http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2015/04/27/move-over-...

One would need a very contorted definition of "prominent in cloud services" to go along with that. BlueMix is still taking its baby steps compared to AWS or Google, and Softlayer is more like an outsourced data center with a bit of a management portal on top.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#25

Post by ReadEvalPost »

apo wrote: post #5

IBM layoff rumors have been around for awhile: http://www.cringely.com/2015/01/26/ibm-right-gadfly/ I'm not sure what to make of this one.

I'm unsure on the actual sizing but that wasn't exactly a rumor, that's when I was laid off. This was after a furlough and narrowly avoiding another layoff less than a year into my employment.

Needless to say I'm glad I'm gone, even if it wasn't my choice.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#27

Post by dcwca »

mattzito wrote: post #22
rdtsc wrote: post #11

That is a good sign. It means the ship is slowly turning around. It sucks for the employees being laid off, no doubt. However they have to do this. There is no other way. They bet big on support and services in early 2000s. So they have lots of those employees. Could they all start to learn new things adapt to the new environment, yeah, some will but not everyone will. Heck, if they didn't lay off people, they'd stil…

See, these types of comments are (again) why people have negative opinions towards silicon valley types. You may be right, but a good sign for whom, exactly? For the people who lost their jobs? For shareholders? For fans of IBM the company? Sure, yes, I agree that IBM probably has to shed people in order to stay competitive. However, it's not the fault of the people who are being affected by this, as by and large the…

> You may be right, but a good sign for whom, exactly? For the people who lost their jobs? For shareholders? For fans of IBM the company?

For IBM. It's good when you consider the alternative where a great company is slowly destroyed and everyone loses their jobs.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#28

Post by mathattack »

rdtsc wrote: post #11

That is a good sign. It means the ship is slowly turning around. It sucks for the employees being laid off, no doubt. However they have to do this. There is no other way. They bet big on support and services in early 2000s. So they have lots of those employees. Could they all start to learn new things adapt to the new environment, yeah, some will but not everyone will. Heck, if they didn't lay off people, they'd stil…

It seems to me like IBM is in perpetual layoff mode. It's not that the ship is turning around - it's that it's grinding down into irrelevance. In a sense IBM is doing it the right way - returning the capital (via dividends and buybacks) and people (unfortunately via layoffs) back to the market to work on productive things in configurations that add value. Better to do this than to waste everyone's time and money. (But yes - it's painful!)

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#29

Post by ebbv »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #20
ebbv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is 100% illegal, but Disney got away with it so other big firms are following suit.

I could've sworn they had to walk that back: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-disney-technology-h1b-...

They only "walked it back" enough to squash the bad PR they were getting. Once the headlines went away they went forward with their plan after all:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/us/lawsuit-claims-disney-c...

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#30

Post by product50 »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #3

There have been a couple folks on Facebook reporting that the H1-B folks they trained are staying while they are let go (ala Disney et al).

This is probably heresy. No one talks about the H-1B worker who got laid off - it is only about the ones who stay. Not sure if everyone in this thread is aware but if an H-1B worker is laid off, he/she gets only 30 days to find a new job. If he is not able to land a new gig within 30 days, they have to leave US for good. So I will not judge here based on a couple of FB comments.
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