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Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

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Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#21

Post by losteric »

jonesb6 wrote: post #9

I've always thought of it as: An engineer engineers solutions, frequently from scratch or very small pieces. A developer develops solutions, often from larger pieces, focusing on implementing them to solve business needs. It's subtle but I think there is some differentiation. I think the vast majority of companies only require developers, or mostly developers, including Etsy.. because let's be honest what is Etsy doi…

That's what I've heard too. It's all about scale.

Developers build specific tools using generic pieces. Think of using AWS to serve up a CMS with business-specific code hooking into a parent company's payment processor.

Engineers build general tools using specific pieces. Think of building AWS DynamoDB.

edit: It's not about LOC, it's about understanding systems and algorithms... the distinction between putting Lego blocks together, and understanding how and why those bricks were made.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#22

Post by meritt »

I'm not sure there's a point in trying to create a distinction between titles or trying to make "developer" a pejorative.

At the end of the day companies want to hire people who love what they do, a fiery passion to for continuous self-improvement, extremely competent at their job, and keenly aware of how their role impacts the overall success of the company. Simply changing 'developer' to 'engineer' in your recruiting efforts sure as hell doesn't guarantee those attributes.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#23

Post by joslin01 »

iamleppert wrote: post #16

Very odd to see this kind of attitude coming from someone who works on a community that supports makers. Not every problem needs to be engineered. Sometimes you just need a good enough solution developed, and an engineered one would be overkill.

And engineers can't handle the easy development?

For a CTO, a long-term view is necessary and he probably wants software engineers in the long-term -- not just developers who have limited utility.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#24

Post by estefan »

commenter1239 wrote: post #20
toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. I keep seeing job postings requiring (combined roles): * Must do backend * Must do frontend * Must do devops * Must do database schemas like a wizard * Must know all of AWS inside and out * Do you like customer support? You'll be doing customer support. * You'll be doing marketing disguised as engineering blog posts. Completely unrealistic.

When I see the following terms, I usually move on: Guru, Ninja, Wizard, Rockstar. I am none of these.

Agree. Nor do I want to associate with people who think they are.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#25

Post by mattlutze »

I don't understand why he's drawing this line in the sand.

Engineering is applying scientific principles to solve a problem. Development is the process of improving something.

I don't see why they should be at odds; the concepts seem orthogonal.

Instead of insulting rigorous, creative professionals who prefer the name "developer" over "engineer", maybe he could have said that he wants to hire people that won't go CYA when problems happen.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#26

Post by [deleted] »

mtmail wrote: post #2

In the paragraph on "Engineering vs. Development" I read what engineering is "Engineering, as a discipline and as an activity, is multi-disciplinary. It’s just messy. And that’s actually the best part of engineering. It’s not about everyone knowing everything. It’s about paying attention to the shared, mutual understanding. " But the author doesn't contrast that with what development is. I used the words interchangea…

[deleted]

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#27

Post by mariodiana »

Joel Spolsky wrote an essay on "leaky abstractions," and from reading the interview with the Etsy CTO, the two seem related. Allspaw is making the distinction between engineers and developers this way. To him, an engineer is willing and able to get under the hood, if necessary; whereas a developer is limited to using libraries and frameworks as-is, and filing bug reports on them when things don't go as planned, or feature requests if he bumps up against some limitation. I think that's what he means when he characterizes the non-engineer as having a "not my job" mentality.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#28

Post by nickpsecurity »

High-assurance software and security field have been doing real engineering for decades. Here's a nice presentation with a tie-in to another high-assurance discipline:

http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~hook/cs491sp08/AssuranceSp08.ppt

Here's an old method, Cleanroom, that was cost-effective for business with low, defect rate even on first use:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=E10....

Altran[-Praxis] is a modern company engineering solutions with their Correct by Construction methodology:

http://www.sis.pitt.edu/jjoshi/Devsec/CorrectnessByConstruct....

They warranty their code like Cleanroom teams used to. Still in business so the method works. ;) Their SPARK tool is now GPL with lots of learning resources available. So, those are a few examples of engineering software vs just developing it. The results in terms of predictability, reliability and low defects speak for themselves.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#29

Post by fhd2 »

meritt wrote: post #22

I'm not sure there's a point in trying to create a distinction between titles or trying to make "developer" a pejorative. At the end of the day companies want to hire people who love what they do, a fiery passion to for continuous self-improvement, extremely competent at their job, and keenly aware of how their role impacts the overall success of the company. Simply changing 'developer' to 'engineer' in your recruiti…

I agree, my definition of a (good) "developer" matches TFAs definition of an "engineer" rather closely. I've mostly seen the terms being used interchangeably.

Most well known software companies I've checked so far seem to go for "engineer". StackExchange however seems to have "developer" titles.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#30

Post by mynameisvlad »

falcolas wrote: post #15
acheron wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno about startups, where it probably is just "we're going to overwork you", but in big companies a posting like this is often a "hire Bob" situation -- Bob worked at the company for many years, picked up a bunch of different skills and was working on different projects. Bob leaves. They only have the one opening to bring someone on, so they want to hire someone exactly like Bob, and just throw up a job posting wit…

Or, renew someone's work visa. Requirements are that such a job is made publicly available... but no outside hires are made, they just use it to renew the existing engineer's visa. Seen this twice (well, applied for two positions and found out this was the case why I wasn't considered).

As broken as the visa system here is, I don't believe any short term visa (one that would need to be renewed) requires a job posting, for initial or renewal. They're based on other factors, and generally just require an application and for the candidate to be eligible. The only time a job posting had to be created for me was for PERM, for the green card process.
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