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Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#21

Post by nmrm2 »

jimbokun wrote: post #16

Sounds more to me like a bunch of computer science professors trying to market 4 year degrees and 10s (or 100s) of thousands of dollars in debt to lower income African Americans, with questionable benefits in terms of employment outcomes.

> computer science professors

generally speaking couldn't care less about the marketability of their degree programs among the general public, much less the lower income general public. Enrollment numbers just aren't important enough currency in higher ed to devote enough effort to get the president and a bunch of celebrities on board.

Deans, maybe. But not run-of-the-mill professors.

And even then, almost all CS programs have the exact opposite problem right now -- too many people and too much hype so that it's hard to predict the future and grow sustainably.

Besides, it is a very well-documented fact that the current push for STEM -- and specifically CS -- education is coming from political types and insdustry folks.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#22

Post by rileymat2 »

armitron wrote: post #13
mpbm wrote: post #9

Is it just me, or was the entire "question" in the article irrelevant? Like, yes just "learning to code" doesn't make you a good programmer. But just "learning to write" doesn't make you a good author either. You have to get an introduction and basic skills somewhere, even if most people will never go on to develop or profit from those skills.

This also assumes that everyone can become a good programmer, which is IMO far from being the case. Programming is an ART, not everyone can be Bach or Picasso even though most can slap paint on canvas or hit keys on a piano. It's actually a lot worse with software engineering because the end result doesn't only have aesthetic value but is an interconnected system that in many cases subsumes many facets of our everyda…

My CRUD apps are super artful.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#24

Post by kuschku »

empath75 wrote: post #2

I don't get the complaint that teaching Java and JavaScript puts them on the bottom rung. You have to learn on some programming language and those are as good as any, though starting on Java sounds painful.

> You have to learn on some programming language and those are as good as any, though starting on Java sounds painful.

Not really – but I won’t make that argument myself, but instead link to pg’s "Blub Paradox": http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#25

Post by armitron »

rileymat2 wrote: post #22
armitron wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also assumes that everyone can become a good programmer, which is IMO far from being the case. Programming is an ART, not everyone can be Bach or Picasso even though most can slap paint on canvas or hit keys on a piano. It's actually a lot worse with software engineering because the end result doesn't only have aesthetic value but is an interconnected system that in many cases subsumes many facets of our everyda…

My CRUD apps are super artful.

Hopefully we don't end up relying on them for anything serious!

All jokes aside, there is also the diluting factor to take into account. A lot of the mechanical/boring/repetitive software engineering type tasks (e.g. javascript/php/java code monkeys that spend half of their working hours looking up answers at stackoverflow.com and the other half trying to implement said answers by clumsily glueing together 3rd party code) can be expected to go away by automation in the not-too-distant future.

Thus we end up with extreme dilution of the prime domain by substandard/incompetent coders.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#26

Post by jimbokun »

Maybe the student has an inspiration for a business based on observations of their friends, or to solve a business problem their parents have, and just needs to learn enough to write an app to test out their hypothesis. Needing to hire a developer to test even the simplest ideas presents a very high barrier to entry.

If someone can code even a little bit, it really opens lots of opportunities, even without data structures, algorithms, and the rest of the computer science curriculum.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#27

Post by tanker »

mpbm wrote: post #9

Is it just me, or was the entire "question" in the article irrelevant? Like, yes just "learning to code" doesn't make you a good programmer. But just "learning to write" doesn't make you a good author either. You have to get an introduction and basic skills somewhere, even if most people will never go on to develop or profit from those skills.

This is the only part I saw that directly addressed the question of "Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?"

>...for students of color in particular, whether the emphasis on knowing Java and JavaScript only puts them on the bottom rung of the tech workforce.

The obvious follow-up question is, "Are there significant differences in the way coding is being introduced in schools based on the average income level of the area?"

Yes --> Is there some reason for this? Does one method require more resources? Is one way actually better than the other?

No --> Then, "Technical Ghettos" are not likely to result from the program.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#28

Post by mfoy_ »

armitron wrote: post #13
mpbm wrote: post #9

Is it just me, or was the entire "question" in the article irrelevant? Like, yes just "learning to code" doesn't make you a good programmer. But just "learning to write" doesn't make you a good author either. You have to get an introduction and basic skills somewhere, even if most people will never go on to develop or profit from those skills.

This also assumes that everyone can become a good programmer, which is IMO far from being the case. Programming is an ART, not everyone can be Bach or Picasso even though most can slap paint on canvas or hit keys on a piano. It's actually a lot worse with software engineering because the end result doesn't only have aesthetic value but is an interconnected system that in many cases subsumes many facets of our everyda…

Because if you can't be the best, don't even try. Right?

Btw, ponus points for (in the context of this article) implying that Black and Hispanic children aren't smart enough to be software engineers.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#29

Post by armitron »

mfoy_ wrote: post #28
armitron wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also assumes that everyone can become a good programmer, which is IMO far from being the case. Programming is an ART, not everyone can be Bach or Picasso even though most can slap paint on canvas or hit keys on a piano. It's actually a lot worse with software engineering because the end result doesn't only have aesthetic value but is an interconnected system that in many cases subsumes many facets of our everyda…

Because if you can't be the best, don't even try. Right? Btw, ponus points for (in the context of this article) implying that Black and Hispanic children aren't smart enough to be software engineers.

You can try all you want, and in fact I encourage everyone to do so.

Let's not have populists plant the seeds that all it takes is government handouts (and also wave the carrot of future career ROI in front of people who don't know better) though.

This is at best misdirection and manipulation by corrupt demagogues who know nothing about software or engineering. Unless of course there are others, besides hack job politicians, who are putting forth the same views?

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#30

Post by true_religion »

tanker wrote: post #27
mpbm wrote: post #9

Is it just me, or was the entire "question" in the article irrelevant? Like, yes just "learning to code" doesn't make you a good programmer. But just "learning to write" doesn't make you a good author either. You have to get an introduction and basic skills somewhere, even if most people will never go on to develop or profit from those skills.

This is the only part I saw that directly addressed the question of "Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?" >...for students of color in particular, whether the emphasis on knowing Java and JavaScript only puts them on the bottom rung of the tech workforce. The obvious follow-up question is, "Are there significant differences in the way coding is being introduced in schools based on the average income…

I'm not understanding how Java---famed in Enterprise applications, and Javascript---famed in frontend development and now SPAs is going to put anyone on the bottom rung of the tech workforce in general.

Ofcourse once you graduate whether it be a bachelors degree or a boot camp, you're at the bottom rung by default. Yet what's unexpected about new graduates doing entry level work?

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