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WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

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Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#21

Post by guelo »

chatmasta wrote: post #14

Julian Assange has some "big balls." Either he really likes pushing his luck, or his end game is way bigger than anyone realizes. He was just starting to curry the favor of the general public. He was the subject of a prominent biopic, he received a positive resolution from the UN. He has a lot of supporters, but they're not all fully sold on his philosophy. Many of his supporters might consider this leak not in the s…

Assange is not American so your pro-American-aggression PR perspective probably holds very little sway with someone like him.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#22

Post by Florin_Andrei »

secfirstmd wrote: post #15

While it's arguable that Berlusconi was a sensible target...How does that justify spying on the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) in Afghanistan? Or from previous revelations, UNICEF - the children's agency? FWIW, I've just started laying out one aspect of this debate and how intelligence operation blowback can affect the perception of neutrality of NGOs working on the ground. This increasingly se…

> How does that justify spying on the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) in Afghanistan? Or from previous revelations, UNICEF - the children's agency?

I think spycraft is a bit like logging to ELK, or sending metrics to Graphite/InfluxDB - capture all data you can, analyze later.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#23

Post by guelo »

pnathan wrote: post #8
duncan_bayne wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I sort of thought that's its legitimate purpose (as opposed to domestic surveillance).

Yes, this is what it's chartered to do. Now, there exists a group of people, of which Assange is one (as far as I can tell), who believe that spying is wrong , and governmental secrecy is wrong . Thus this particular Wikileaks release, and, afaict, a lot of the Wikileaks effort has gone into promulgating that ideological goal. I would note that governmental transparency is pursued by multiple political groups across…

Spying is illegal in most countries, including the United States. If an Italian spy were caught here stealing Obama's communications he would be put in jail for a lengthy term. If an American spy were caught in Italy they would also be arrested and sent to jail. This whole concept that it's OK for my country to spy on others is strange and hypocritical. It is not heroic, legal, or moral, to spy on other countries unless there has been a declaration of war.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#24

Post by wyldfire »

chatmasta wrote: post #14

Julian Assange has some "big balls." Either he really likes pushing his luck, or his end game is way bigger than anyone realizes. He was just starting to curry the favor of the general public. He was the subject of a prominent biopic, he received a positive resolution from the UN. He has a lot of supporters, but they're not all fully sold on his philosophy. Many of his supporters might consider this leak not in the s…

> Game theory, tit-for-tat, and mutually assured destruction all make intelligence gathering necessary

Are you sure you meant "mutually assured destruction" there? That generally refers to annihilating one's opponent -- that's out of scope for intelligence, right?

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#25

Post by chatmasta »

wyldfire wrote: post #24
chatmasta wrote: post #14

Julian Assange has some "big balls." Either he really likes pushing his luck, or his end game is way bigger than anyone realizes. He was just starting to curry the favor of the general public. He was the subject of a prominent biopic, he received a positive resolution from the UN. He has a lot of supporters, but they're not all fully sold on his philosophy. Many of his supporters might consider this leak not in the s…

> Game theory, tit-for-tat, and mutually assured destruction all make intelligence gathering necessary Are you sure you meant "mutually assured destruction" there? That generally refers to annihilating one's opponent -- that's out of scope for intelligence, right?

Yes. As this article shows, signals intercepts are enough material to "annihilate" your opponent in negotiation. In diplomacy, information is a weapon. Information known only to you, is a nuke.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#26

Post by chatmasta »

qrendel wrote: post #20
chatmasta wrote: post #14

Julian Assange has some "big balls." Either he really likes pushing his luck, or his end game is way bigger than anyone realizes. He was just starting to curry the favor of the general public. He was the subject of a prominent biopic, he received a positive resolution from the UN. He has a lot of supporters, but they're not all fully sold on his philosophy. Many of his supporters might consider this leak not in the s…

Considering they recently chose to completely ignore the UN opinion on his "arbitrary detention," on top of everything else in the past - false rape accusations, ignoring his asylum status - I don't see what more he really has to lose. What are the odds he possibly gets out of this without torture, assassination, or life in prison? They've done everything possible to turn him into an actual enemy, rather than the edi…

Exactly. He has nothing to lose, so he is doing this now. For himself. The timing is obviously coordinated around his personal motives, not those of wikileaks the organization. In fact it's unclear how much of an "organization" really even exists outside of Assange. So perhaps his personal strategy remains inextricably linked to the wikileaks strategy, precisely because Julian Assange and wikileaks are effectively a single entity.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#27

Post by ApplaudPumice »

chatmasta wrote: post #26
qrendel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering they recently chose to completely ignore the UN opinion on his "arbitrary detention," on top of everything else in the past - false rape accusations, ignoring his asylum status - I don't see what more he really has to lose. What are the odds he possibly gets out of this without torture, assassination, or life in prison? They've done everything possible to turn him into an actual enemy, rather than the edi…

Exactly. He has nothing to lose, so he is doing this now. For himself. The timing is obviously coordinated around his personal motives, not those of wikileaks the organization. In fact it's unclear how much of an "organization" really even exists outside of Assange. So perhaps his personal strategy remains inextricably linked to the wikileaks strategy, precisely because Julian Assange and wikileaks are effectively a…

And what are his personal motives? Provide some sources.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#28

Post by Kalium »

dragonwriter wrote: post #5
apsec112 wrote: post #4

Spying on other governments is the NSA's job. The problem is when it starts spying on ordinary citizens.

> Spying on other governments is the NSA's job. Nevertheless, specific instances of spying on allied governments is often irritating to the ally involved, and their citizenry. US citizens are probably less upset about foreign surveillance by the NSA (even if it is directed at allies), OTOH, US citizens aren't the entire audience for news.

Spying on allied governments is very common and immensely useful. It helps do things like ensure coordination of policy.

It is, however, incredibly bad form to be caught doing so.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#30

Post by samstave »

While I think that your analogy is fantastic - I want to rebut it... not to rebut you, but to the intelligence community.

FUCK YOU intelligence community. I fucking hate you.

We are suffering from the parasite of tyranny on the human condition.

fuck that condition. Humans exist as both an individual and as a community - this is the binary spectrum we exist in. The challenge is in how we understand the differences between individuality and community.

Governments are an overlay which were ostensibly to provide order over chaos. Yet we are now in a position where they extract power from both chaos and order.

I reject this. Whole heart. I reject a government or any group or any individual who serves to extract control over me or others.

I may lose, entirely (e.g. my life) but I hands-down deny any authority which is literally stealing existence in order to exist.

FUCK THEM.

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