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EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

bbc.co.uk

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Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#21

Post by aembleton »

vertex-four wrote: post #5
venomsnake wrote: post #2

I really hope for an exit. I just want to see what will happen with UK outside of EU. Especially since they have done nothing to fulfill their pre referendum Scottish promises. The imperial preference days are over. That is a lesson the British need to learn. And a self inflicted wound will be the best way to do it. So either UK will be in EU as with all other or not at all. The current state of affairs as we are in…

That sounds like you're treating this as a game. Fact of the matter is, if we leave the EU, a whole bunch of minorities lose a whole bunch of human rights protections. When this happens, the ability to lead a life of any sort decreases and suicide rates increase. The UK being "kinda-sorta part of the EU" is not a wonderful thing, but being out of it entirely would be far worse for real people. Fight for more integrat…

What human rights protections will be lost by leaving? In fact, what legislation would be removed by leaving? Surely all existing EU legislation is enacted into British law via an act of parliament.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#22

Post by calpaterson »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #10

Worth noting this is only happening because the British electoral system is broken. A small anti-EU, right-wing party could have stolen just enough votes on this issue to turn the tide on the two party system result due to the brain damage of first-past-the-post[1], so the main right-wing party started this hare-brained scheme in motion to head that off. This, in a nation where PR and full democracy is derided becaus…

Indeed it is happening because the political system is broken, but in the exact opposite way from how you have described.

"A small anti-EU, right wing party" - UKIP got nearly 13% of the vote and would probably be part of a coalition government with the Conservative party if we had a proportional representation system. Instead they have 1 MP. The SNP got only 8.6% of the vote and they have 56 MPs.

The referendum is happening because finally the grassroots of the Conservative party prevailed on the parliamentary Conservative party that we had to have one. Polling has historically shown that at least 40% of the country want to leave the EU. All of the traditional parties support the EU membership.

The UK joined an economic community that has somehow transformed into a superstate. You need to have democratic process if you want to make a change that big.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#23

Post by keithpeter »

vertex-four wrote: post #5
venomsnake wrote: post #2

I really hope for an exit. I just want to see what will happen with UK outside of EU. Especially since they have done nothing to fulfill their pre referendum Scottish promises. The imperial preference days are over. That is a lesson the British need to learn. And a self inflicted wound will be the best way to do it. So either UK will be in EU as with all other or not at all. The current state of affairs as we are in…

That sounds like you're treating this as a game. Fact of the matter is, if we leave the EU, a whole bunch of minorities lose a whole bunch of human rights protections. When this happens, the ability to lead a life of any sort decreases and suicide rates increase. The UK being "kinda-sorta part of the EU" is not a wonderful thing, but being out of it entirely would be far worse for real people. Fight for more integrat…

The Council of Europe[2] isn't same as the EU. The countries below [1] have ratified the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. I accept that enforcing some of the provisions of the Convention in some of the countries listed could be problematic. We sort of managed before 1973 (with shady areas that continued after 1973 just the same).

[1] http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=press/factsheets&c...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#24

Post by tonyedgecombe »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #10

Worth noting this is only happening because the British electoral system is broken. A small anti-EU, right-wing party could have stolen just enough votes on this issue to turn the tide on the two party system result due to the brain damage of first-past-the-post[1], so the main right-wing party started this hare-brained scheme in motion to head that off. This, in a nation where PR and full democracy is derided becaus…

The Tories have been squabbling about this for years, well before UKIP came on the scene.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#25

Post by aembleton »

antillean wrote: post #17
k-mcgrady wrote: post #16

I'm pretty worried about this. I don't think most of the public are well enough informed to make this decision and I can't really blame them given all the propaganda. I could see many people making their decision based on immigration alone. One place that's going to be particularly hard hit by an exit will be Northern Ireland considering it shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland. In order to keep the curre…

Uh, no. Neither Ireland nor the UK is in the Schengen. The UK didn't want to be, and Ireland opted out because of the UK. From the BBC[1]: "The UK and Republic of Ireland have opted out. The UK wants to maintain its own borders, and Dublin prefers to preserve its free movement arrangement with the UK - called the Common Travel Area - rather than join Schengen." 1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13194723

The UK and Ireland may both want to preserve the Common Travel Area, but I don't think Ireland has any say in the matter. It will be up to the European Union, or more accurately the commissioners.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#26

Post by aembleton »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #19
antillean wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, no. Neither Ireland nor the UK is in the Schengen. The UK didn't want to be, and Ireland opted out because of the UK. From the BBC[1]: "The UK and Republic of Ireland have opted out. The UK wants to maintain its own borders, and Dublin prefers to preserve its free movement arrangement with the UK - called the Common Travel Area - rather than join Schengen." 1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13194723

Shocked I wasn't aware of that! I still think it'll be pretty bad from a business perspective with Northern Ireland losing companies to the Republic and more difficult trading between the two.

More concerning will be the future of the Good Friday Agreement and the peace in the area.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#27

Post by zdkl »

bjourne wrote: post #13

I hope Sweden leaves too, and/or Brexit causes the union to collapse. We have paid billions in aid to the poorer EU countries for years and all we get back are refugees, Romanian beggars and criminal gangs from the Balkans.

I really want to believe you're being sarcastic...

In any case, neither the aid nor the 'consequence' you list above would be fixed by magic-ing the EU away.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#28

Post by antillean »

aembleton wrote: post #25
antillean wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, no. Neither Ireland nor the UK is in the Schengen. The UK didn't want to be, and Ireland opted out because of the UK. From the BBC[1]: "The UK and Republic of Ireland have opted out. The UK wants to maintain its own borders, and Dublin prefers to preserve its free movement arrangement with the UK - called the Common Travel Area - rather than join Schengen." 1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13194723

The UK and Ireland may both want to preserve the Common Travel Area, but I don't think Ireland has any say in the matter. It will be up to the European Union, or more accurately the commissioners.

Eh, what? Hasn't the ROI had a say up to now? What's about to change? Is the EC about to invade the ROI?

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#29

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

This is going to have wide-reaching consequences no matter what way it goes. Off the top of my head, potential issues include:

* Combined with the sovereign debt crisis and the migrant crisis, this could be the end of the EU (perhaps unlikely, but)

* The UK leaving the EU with the Republic of Ireland staying in (there's little support for RoI leaving) could create problems in Northern Ireland

* The UK voting to leave the EU, with Scotland having voted to stay, could lead to another Scottish independence referendum

* The UK voting to stay in the EU, with England having voted to leave, might (though I don't know how likely it is) upset people in England

* Whatever way the result goes, it might bring down the current UK Government and force elections

* If the UK leaves, other countries might consider it as well

* If the UK stays, other countries might want to renegotiate their terms as well

* This will bring up the European Convention on/Court of Human Rights, and Human Rights Act, issue again - what happens if the UK actually does leave the ECHR or repeal the HRA? Especially in Northern Ireland, where the HRA is part of the Good Friday Agreement, and in Scotland, where laws must comply with the ECHR

I'm not an expert on any of this. It'll be interesting to see what happens, certainly.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#30

Post by aembleton »

dogma1138 wrote: post #20
junto wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Brit living in Germany. A vote to leave the EU is likely to mean that I will need to apply for a work visa to stay here. It is more than likely going to cause me a major pain in the arse. On the other hand I'm tempted to have the anti-EU Brits win and let them see what a disaster that will be for the UK, shutting them up once and for all. Then have them come back with their tails between their legs asking to be…

The UK most likely will still remain within the EEA even if they'll leave the EU, as resident holders within Iceland, Norway and Switzerland can move around and work within any country within the EEA/EU even without being EU members. Not to mention that even a vote to exit will take years and there will be provisions to maintain current status it's highly unlikely that the UK will kick out millions of residents not t…

Agreed. I think you should be able to live and work in another EU country for a maximum of five years. After which time you should apply for citizenship. That way, member states can control migration levels and in exchange, those who have moved and settled in another country get full citizenship status including the right to fully partake in the voting process.
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