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On Marrying the Wrong Person

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Re: On Marrying the Wrong Person

#21

Post by manyoso »

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #15

Here's an uncomfortable thought: an effective 1-to-1 mapping between men and women probably doesn't exist. The fact of the matter is that women are primarily interested in a top smaller percentage of high value men (this is called hypergamy). This smaller group of desirable men would most like to have multiple mates (this is called polygamy). Marriage, and the accompanying culture and customs, 'corrects' this by tryi…

"The fact of the matter is that people become unhappy in a relationship of any kind when they think they are getting the short end of the stick, and could be doing better."

This is such a pithy statement, used with such simple compelling force, that I applaud it even while disagreeing. Some points that counter this message:

1) What percentage of partners that end up leaving the marriage do so with another partner lined up?

2) Of the percentage that do not - a sizable set I would assume - how many exited after long-term (years?) relationships?

3) Of the percentage that did - another sizable set I would assume - what caused the reasoning process to take so long? Why didn't they conclude they could do better earlier?

I would argue most people go into marriage with at least some amount of good faith effort to make it last. Why do they make such a good faith effort in the first place if they are operating as you would say?

Re: On Marrying the Wrong Person

#23

Post by k__ »

santaclause33 wrote: post #11

Three notes I would add: 1) In response to the "know yourself" bullet: I met my now wife at 15 - we learned a lot about ourselves between then and when we married at age 22. But we were pretty much committed to marrying by age 18, even though we learned a lot after. You can learn with another person. 2) Life pro tip on understanding other people (this is a quick reinforcement of a bunch of points in the article): if…

Yes, same goes for my brother, but I don't know how much of it relies on premise, that they can't live without each other anymore, because their life's are so entangled.

I mean he is 31 and they came together when he was 16 and she was 15. They experienced their whole adult life together. They split for about 4 months but came together again, probably because of this.

On the other hand, I'm the complete opposite, so it's hard for me to understand.

I had my first relationship with 19 and we were together only one year. I'm 30 now and had about 7 relationships. Right now I have my two longest relationships of 2 and 2,5 years.

Maybe it's a good thing to get together with 15, so you make the most important experiences in life together, to weld you together more strongly.

When I started dating with 19 I already had many expectations and a own life, which needed another person to fit in somehow. And most didn't...

Re: On Marrying the Wrong Person

#24

Post by zxcvvcxz »

manyoso wrote: post #21
zxcvvcxz wrote: post #15

Here's an uncomfortable thought: an effective 1-to-1 mapping between men and women probably doesn't exist. The fact of the matter is that women are primarily interested in a top smaller percentage of high value men (this is called hypergamy). This smaller group of desirable men would most like to have multiple mates (this is called polygamy). Marriage, and the accompanying culture and customs, 'corrects' this by tryi…

"The fact of the matter is that people become unhappy in a relationship of any kind when they think they are getting the short end of the stick, and could be doing better." This is such a pithy statement, used with such simple compelling force, that I applaud it even while disagreeing. Some points that counter this message: 1) What percentage of partners that end up leaving the marriage do so with another partner lin…

Thanks, I've been working on my over-the-top writing style as it sparks discussion and draws attention.

> 1) What percentage of partners that end up leaving the marriage do so with another partner lined up?

According to [1], surveys show that 55% of people say infidelity is a contributing factor in the divorce. And that's probably just the ones that know (as it is often kept a secret), so we can take this number as a floor of the actual. "Lined up" - implying future relationship - doesn't matter so much as "other partner involved" which is to what this refers, and is my point. Even without infidelity, the exiting partner could have potentials "lined up" that they'd rather date (than stay married).

> 2) Of the percentage that do not - a sizable set I would assume - how many exited after long-term (years?) relationships?

I don't know. I'm sure it's possible to be repulsed by someone you're married to without knowing exactly who you'd go out with next.

> 3) Of the percentage that did - another sizable set I would assume - what caused the reasoning process to take so long? Why didn't they conclude they could do better earlier?

Marriage is (was) a very hard contract to annul. That's the point of it. These people are often fighting these feelings for years: weighing their natural biological impulses against higher-level rational thought. Rational thought that has been crafted from the narratives of a culture, encouraging marriage as a virtue. The impulses come from diminished pair bonding chemicals and more enticing (and realistically accessible) mating opportunities.

> I would argue most people go into marriage with at least some amount of good faith effort to make it last. Why do they make such a good faith effort in the first place if they are operating as you would say?

Of course. The key is that they don't know how they're operating. They don't understand that we've evolved multi-year chemical bonding capabilities to help us raise young children, and that after those fade, shit gets tough, and the lure of bonding with someone new/better (new is a form of better, genetic diversity and all that) becomes more attractive. The bond dies quicker if a better partner is easily accessible, btw. These types of mechanisms are necessary to help women select for better genes.

[1] - http://www.divorce.usu.edu/files/uploads/lesson3.pdf

Re: On Marrying the Wrong Person

#25

Post by cryoshon »

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #15

Here's an uncomfortable thought: an effective 1-to-1 mapping between men and women probably doesn't exist. The fact of the matter is that women are primarily interested in a top smaller percentage of high value men (this is called hypergamy). This smaller group of desirable men would most like to have multiple mates (this is called polygamy). Marriage, and the accompanying culture and customs, 'corrects' this by tryi…

In practice biologically, sure, you're right, but it's tough to look beyond the tribal-cultural ingrainment of marriage into people's psyches... sure, people may always fantasize about doing better than they currently are, but in how many people will those thoughts turn into actions?

There's too many contented or at least not actively dissatisfied people to support the idea you're discussing in practice, though I agree it's theoretically plausible.

Rather than a question of sexual access relative to resources, I'd reframe it for the 21st century as a mutual understanding of shared needs and shared solutions to those needs. Sure, not everyone can fill every need for every other person, but it's probably better than going without, which is why the pragmatic mate choice also provides genuine positive emotion, even if it's not the "maximum" need fulfillment possible.

Re: On Marrying the Wrong Person

#26

Post by cmollis »

logfromblammo wrote: post #22

I searched the article and found only one mention of "money". My hypothesis is that libido mismatch and inability to reach consensus on household budgeting are the two strongest root causes for failed marriages.

There was distinct libido mismatch which ultimately deteriorated into an effective 'weapon', if you will (if you do this, you won't get that, kind of thing). Money was never a problem. I suspect money is Often used as convenient excuse hiding something more sinister (or prosaic like in my case, we just never loved one another )

Re: On Marrying the Wrong Person

#27

Post by grahamburger »

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #18
santaclause33 wrote: post #11

Three notes I would add: 1) In response to the "know yourself" bullet: I met my now wife at 15 - we learned a lot about ourselves between then and when we married at age 22. But we were pretty much committed to marrying by age 18, even though we learned a lot after. You can learn with another person. 2) Life pro tip on understanding other people (this is a quick reinforcement of a bunch of points in the article): if…

> 2) Life pro tip on understanding other people (this is a quick reinforcement of a bunch of points in the article): if someone is behaving irrationally, 99% of the time its because they are subconciously insecure about something. How about the possibility that they are tired of their partner? The irrationality might come from the fact that they are bound to them (e.g. marriage) and feel pressure to not break that ap…

But of course you could take a step back and ask why they're tired of their partner. Sometimes that's a result of an internal insecurity, too.

Put another way, you might say that a person who is 'tired' of their partner is in some perhaps fixable way insecure about the relationship itself, of which they are a part.

Re: On Marrying the Wrong Person

#28

Post by k__ »

splintercell wrote: post #10

The single most awful thing people do is treat love as an 'emotional' affair, something which is beyond reason. That when it happens, it happens, and when you're in a relationship, you must at all cost keep maintaining the sense of euphoria or else everything will be gone. This would be equivalent of starting a business with someone not on the basis of the value proposition of the business, but based on how you emoti…

After two failed relationships I started to treat love as a logical decision.

I stopped calling the feeling I get when meeting a new person I get attracted to as love. You know, "having a crush" on someone, wearing the pink-sunglasses, butterflies in the belly, or whatever they call it. Love is still about feelings for me, but about other feelings than those.

It's about being able to completely trust each other. About sharing experiences. About understanding. About learning and growing together. These are the things that make me continuously happy in a relationship for long time.

Re: On Marrying the Wrong Person

#29

Post by draw_down »

I thought this was pretty fantastic. I would say it nailed much of the reason I ended up marrying the wrong person.

However, denial was a HUGE part that doesn't come up here. Every time in the run-up to the wedding that I experienced something that made me want to call it off, I told myself it was just cold feet, that all guys think that stuff. Denial. But I suppose this is more or less covered by the part about not knowing oneself. Definitely learned a lot about myself since then.

Two more things:

1) It's really not hard to get laid in your 30s. I outright disagree with that part.

2) For me at least, the divorce itself was nowhere near the emotional blow of realizing that I was married to someone who was wrong for me. Carrying that burden inside was soul-destroying. Talking in counseling about what wasn't working, and then ultimately getting divorced, was nowhere near as bad as that. But, I was only married for two years. It probably sucks a lot worse when you've bought a house and had babies and stuff.

Re: On Marrying the Wrong Person

#30

Post by shostack »

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #15

Here's an uncomfortable thought: an effective 1-to-1 mapping between men and women probably doesn't exist. The fact of the matter is that women are primarily interested in a top smaller percentage of high value men (this is called hypergamy). This smaller group of desirable men would most like to have multiple mates (this is called polygamy). Marriage, and the accompanying culture and customs, 'corrects' this by tryi…

Is it odd that a lot of this logic could probably be applied to the job market as well?
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