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Edge of the Abyss (2012)

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Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#21

Post by abortoTheClown »

kough wrote: post #20

It's stories like this that make me wish as hard as I do for better pre-birth screening for mental disorders, including autism, and continued support of abortion. It's an unbearable burden - to the parents, society, but most of all to the children themselves, who are utterly blameless and must suffer the rest of their lives as a result. I try to debate rationally and understand that other people have their own opinio…

But if we aborted every deviation from the norm, we'd probably slip into monoculture as a species, and risk falling prey to a mass extinction event, beyond our understanding.

Somehow, the cold statistics of DNA mutation would leave us behind, and we'd become creatures with no means of adapting, until one vast catastrophe forces the issue.

What might feel practical in the moment, for one, might be terrible for the collective.

Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#22

Post by user9982 »

kough wrote: post #20

It's stories like this that make me wish as hard as I do for better pre-birth screening for mental disorders, including autism, and continued support of abortion. It's an unbearable burden - to the parents, society, but most of all to the children themselves, who are utterly blameless and must suffer the rest of their lives as a result. I try to debate rationally and understand that other people have their own opinio…

You can't pre birth screen for schizophrenia. Child onset schizophrenia is incredibly rare, normally manifesting between 16-25 in males and 25-30 in females and there is no consensus on the causes of schizophrenia.

Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#23

Post by user9982 »

ryan-allen wrote: post #17
andrewguenther wrote: post #7

Maybe note that this article is from 2012? Since then, Bodhi (the brother) has been diagnosed autistic and they suspect he is also a paranoid schizophrenic, but he just doesn't verbalize like Jani does. Michael (the dad) had an affair and the parents are now divorced. It is a truly tragic story. There is a well-written post from Michael which I can't seem to find where he gives advice to other parents raising childre…

I saw a documentary on her (can't remember which), and the family rented two apartments in a complex, because she was violent with her younger brother.

That's in the article

Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#24

Post by jsprogrammer »

If I read the article right, it sounds like Jani started immediately improving once people began talking and interacting with her.

I wonder how things might have been different if that treatment would have been tried much earlier on.

Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#25

Post by gherkin0 »

abortoTheClown wrote: post #21
kough wrote: post #20

It's stories like this that make me wish as hard as I do for better pre-birth screening for mental disorders, including autism, and continued support of abortion. It's an unbearable burden - to the parents, society, but most of all to the children themselves, who are utterly blameless and must suffer the rest of their lives as a result. I try to debate rationally and understand that other people have their own opinio…

But if we aborted every deviation from the norm, we'd probably slip into monoculture as a species, and risk falling prey to a mass extinction event, beyond our understanding. Somehow, the cold statistics of DNA mutation would leave us behind, and we'd become creatures with no means of adapting, until one vast catastrophe forces the issue. What might feel practical in the moment, for one, might be terrible for the col…

> But if we aborted every deviation from the norm, we'd probably slip into monoculture as a species, and risk falling prey to a mass extinction event, beyond our understanding.

But he wasn't talking about that. A lot (most?) people with serious disorders will not have children, and from an evolutionary perspective that's practically the same as if they died young. There's already selection against those traits.

Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#26

Post by beparanoid »

abortoTheClown wrote: post #21
kough wrote: post #20

It's stories like this that make me wish as hard as I do for better pre-birth screening for mental disorders, including autism, and continued support of abortion. It's an unbearable burden - to the parents, society, but most of all to the children themselves, who are utterly blameless and must suffer the rest of their lives as a result. I try to debate rationally and understand that other people have their own opinio…

But if we aborted every deviation from the norm, we'd probably slip into monoculture as a species, and risk falling prey to a mass extinction event, beyond our understanding. Somehow, the cold statistics of DNA mutation would leave us behind, and we'd become creatures with no means of adapting, until one vast catastrophe forces the issue. What might feel practical in the moment, for one, might be terrible for the col…

That's not how genetics works in a sexually reproducing species. Most selection is via modifying allele frequencies.

Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#27

Post by beparanoid »

user9982 wrote: post #22
kough wrote: post #20

It's stories like this that make me wish as hard as I do for better pre-birth screening for mental disorders, including autism, and continued support of abortion. It's an unbearable burden - to the parents, society, but most of all to the children themselves, who are utterly blameless and must suffer the rest of their lives as a result. I try to debate rationally and understand that other people have their own opinio…

You can't pre birth screen for schizophrenia. Child onset schizophrenia is incredibly rare, normally manifesting between 16-25 in males and 25-30 in females and there is no consensus on the causes of schizophrenia.

Child onset is likely due to a variant of large effect. Adult is not. The glass is half empty, half full. Some schizophrenia is probably screenable most is not.

Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#28

Post by hugs »

gherkin0 wrote: post #25
abortoTheClown wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if we aborted every deviation from the norm, we'd probably slip into monoculture as a species, and risk falling prey to a mass extinction event, beyond our understanding. Somehow, the cold statistics of DNA mutation would leave us behind, and we'd become creatures with no means of adapting, until one vast catastrophe forces the issue. What might feel practical in the moment, for one, might be terrible for the col…

> But if we aborted every deviation from the norm, we'd probably slip into monoculture as a species, and risk falling prey to a mass extinction event, beyond our understanding. But he wasn't talking about that. A lot (most?) people with serious disorders will not have children, and from an evolutionary perspective that's practically the same as if they died young. There's already selection against those traits.

One of my parents has a serious mental illness. It first manifested and became obvious (requiring multiple hospitalizations over the years) in their late 20's after I was born. I don't have the data in front of me, but I understand a mid-to-late 20's onset and diagnosis of mental illness is not rare -- plenty of time to have kids beforehand.

Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#29

Post by inopinatus »

gherkin0 wrote: post #25
abortoTheClown wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if we aborted every deviation from the norm, we'd probably slip into monoculture as a species, and risk falling prey to a mass extinction event, beyond our understanding. Somehow, the cold statistics of DNA mutation would leave us behind, and we'd become creatures with no means of adapting, until one vast catastrophe forces the issue. What might feel practical in the moment, for one, might be terrible for the col…

> But if we aborted every deviation from the norm, we'd probably slip into monoculture as a species, and risk falling prey to a mass extinction event, beyond our understanding. But he wasn't talking about that. A lot (most?) people with serious disorders will not have children, and from an evolutionary perspective that's practically the same as if they died young. There's already selection against those traits.

Human evolution is more complex than the survival of an individual, since many of our adaptations are transmitted as ideas not genes.

Following that line of thinking leads to notions about the presence & importance of second-order interactions (especially the impact of ideas on the survivability of a group); these make it hard to reject the hypothesis: production of outlier individuals is essential to our species.

Sadly outliers occur on all sides of the distribution, including the unhappy ones.

Re: Edge of the Abyss (2012)

#30

Post by m0llusk »

What interests me most about this is that even now we are so lacking in our understanding of the function and dysfunction of the human mind that there are not even good words, robust descriptions, or any scientific metrics or diagnostics for what is going on. Words like engagement and violence get thrown around without quantification and a parade of categories are fitted and later abandoned much like Jani's imaginary friends. It is important for us to understand what the mind is and how it is evoked from brain function, but now we are mostly helpless.
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