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Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

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Re: Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

#21

Post by mortehu »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #19
ryporter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't argue for why the chain analogy applies here. You just argued that we should reject the entire agreement if one part is so egregiously bad that it outweighs the others, which is obviously true. Why does the "weakest link" analogy apply to the actual TPP, which, as far I know, does not call for the murder of any children at all.

The agreement is supposed to be a chain. The things in it are supposed to be related in some way, otherwise why are they together? Dumping many completely unrelated things into the same agreement so that things that should not pass have to be passed in order to do things people want is the thing so egregiously bad that it outweighs everything else. It's a chain with a link so weak it doesn't even exist. Otherwise you…

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The strength of all other links is irrelevant.

A better measure for a deal like this is the geometric mean of its components. If one component is zero, the entire deal is worth zero, but otherwise each component contributes to the aggregate value of the deal.

Re: Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

#22

Post by wfo »

ryporter wrote: post #4

The EFF obviously is focused on one aspect of the deal, and I don't find their arguments about the other aspects to be convincing. For the economic benefits, they use the same form of argument that global warming skeptics and creationists do, observing that there exists people who disagree with the general consensus. The fact that they can name one researcher on both sides of the issue does not imply that we should d…

Most Americans want tariffs. We've seen what removing protectionism and globalizing the economy has done: things are great for American elites and corporate interests, and American workers have been thrown in the dumpster. "Removing tariffs" is a negative, not a positive aspect of a law for most Americans at this point.

And the fact that it is up-or-down without our input makes me more inclined to simply say no. If you don't want my input but you want me to agree, you had better tailor-make your proposition with my interests in mind.

"This deal or nothing" is an easy choice much like a bully saying "my way or the highway" -- the highway is fine, thank you.

Re: Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

#23

Post by JBReefer »

wfo wrote: post #20
nefitty wrote: post #2

TPP is obscured by a wall of confusion and disinformation. As a tax payer of the United States (or any other country involved), what do you think the takeaway is? As in, how should I, a concerned citizen, approach this topic at the bar or the dinner table?

It's a question about the right to self-determination, which is not technical or confusing. It expands and enshrines the right of corporate attorneys to take countries to court and modify their laws to suit corporate interests. If the people of the US want to pass a law, should the constitution and government of the US decide if it sticks? Or a group of corporate lawyers at a multinational corporation in a third part…

That may be your opinion, but I do think we should have a discussion around something as important and complicated as the TPP.

All I've heard so far is Jingoism, we should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Re: Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

#24

Post by dhimes »

emergentcypher wrote: post #15
lumberjack wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reducing tariffs is not in vogue anymore. Trump is getting lots of support for his proposal to reinstate many tariffs. >Furthermore, we can't realistically ask for the parties to go back to the negotiating table to try to improve the deal. This one was 10 years in the making, which is depressing, but does mean that it's basically this deal or nothing. But they told us that negotiating it in secrecy does not matter as…

The point is that we did not have an opportunity to influence the negotiations and therefore the text of the treaty. We instead are presented almost with a fait accompli that we must either accept or reject altogether.

Was there a good reason for the secrecy? I feel like revolting against it as a statement of dissatisfaction with the process.

Re: Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

#25

Post by ryporter »

ktxt wrote: post #11
ryporter wrote: post #4

The EFF obviously is focused on one aspect of the deal, and I don't find their arguments about the other aspects to be convincing. For the economic benefits, they use the same form of argument that global warming skeptics and creationists do, observing that there exists people who disagree with the general consensus. The fact that they can name one researcher on both sides of the issue does not imply that we should d…

It is a fact that the TPP is an early stage of a process that is a threat to clasical liberalism- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_integration#Stages And people like to criticize the Koch Brothers and George Soros, but how many policy promoting non phrofits does David Rockefeller have? Dozens? What if Rockefeller's personal political philosophies are flawed? Him and the Foreign Policy Establishment have unifo…

It is indeed a fact that the TPP moves us closer to Economic Integration. Claiming that Economic Integration is a threat to classical liberalism is your opinion, and is not supported by the link you cited.

Re: Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

#26

Post by r00fus »

livestyle wrote: post #6

There is only one candidate that is addressing TPP. Stephen Miller, Donald Trump senior economic adviser discusses his policy here https://soundcloud.com/breitbart/breitbart-news-daily-stephe...

Bernie also talks against the TPP as well... Or are you assuming Hillary will win?

Re: Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

#27

Post by [deleted] »

r00fus wrote: post #26
livestyle wrote: post #6

There is only one candidate that is addressing TPP. Stephen Miller, Donald Trump senior economic adviser discusses his policy here https://soundcloud.com/breitbart/breitbart-news-daily-stephe...

Bernie also talks against the TPP as well... Or are you assuming Hillary will win?

[deleted]

Re: Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

#28

Post by ktxt »

ryporter wrote: post #25
ktxt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a fact that the TPP is an early stage of a process that is a threat to clasical liberalism- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_integration#Stages And people like to criticize the Koch Brothers and George Soros, but how many policy promoting non phrofits does David Rockefeller have? Dozens? What if Rockefeller's personal political philosophies are flawed? Him and the Foreign Policy Establishment have unifo…

It is indeed a fact that the TPP moves us closer to Economic Integration. Claiming that Economic Integration is a threat to classical liberalism is your opinion, and is not supported by the link you cited.

Economic Integration is undeniably a threat to American sovereignty and classical liberalism. The evidence is overwhelming.

The entire concept is that the centralization of power is always a good thing. There is no acknowledgement of natural rights in the European Union.

So a supranational world government that replaces the American Constitution and Bill of Rights is going to be rooted in popular sovereignty? Ha.

You are being overly optimistic in a world full of powerhungry collectivists who certainly see classical liberalism as an impediment to world peace and a perfect society.

"The Difference Between the U.S. Constitution and EU Constitution - MEP Dan Hannan" https://youtu.be/dS6hQQ2pyco

Re: Trade Officials Sign the TPP but It's Still Up to Lawmakers to Reject It

#29

Post by livestyle »

r00fus wrote: post #26
livestyle wrote: post #6

There is only one candidate that is addressing TPP. Stephen Miller, Donald Trump senior economic adviser discusses his policy here https://soundcloud.com/breitbart/breitbart-news-daily-stephe...

Bernie also talks against the TPP as well... Or are you assuming Hillary will win?

He actually has detailed plan to address the issues derived from TPP.

If you are into wonk talk you will dig this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctvZuQMmY90

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