You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine • Hacker News Board

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#21

Post by vorotato » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 8:30 PM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #18

My bullshit detectors are leaping off the charts. There are so many completely uncontrolled experiments described there, and the article just jumps to the conclusion that they demonstrate an effect. Add on top that the theory makes not a fleck of sense, and you have no credibility left.

People get their kick from caffeine the moment they start their drink even though it obviously takes much longer for caffeine to actually work. There's a little something there, but I don't know how MUCH of something.

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#22

Post by tokenadult » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 8:32 PM UTC

The claims made in the article kindly submitted here (which does, by the way, come from a pretty good source publication) far exceed what reliable evidence on the issue has shown, and is characteristic of the exaggerated misunderstanding of similar study results by the article author, Jo Marchant. Marchant writes in this vein in other publications, most timed to promote her new book Cure: A Journey into the Science of Mind over Body, but careful researchers who have examined the evidence disagree that the reported effects are real and meaningful.[1] A review of the book[2] agrees with me and with the whole planet that current medical care could emphasize empathy with patients more, but finds much to disagree with in Marchant's book after commenting on many things the reviewer liked about the book. The overall review summary is

"I can’t wholeheartedly recommend the book. Overall, it gives the impression that we know much more than we do. The studies described are very preliminary and far from ready for prime time; we know that preliminary studies are often overturned by larger, better-designed studies. I found some things in the book disturbing. I don’t condone her use of the term “Western medicine;” there is only one medicine. I was appalled that after a C-section she had a VBAC at home, giving birth to her second baby underwater with the assistance of a non-NHS midwife who she believed was less likely to transfer her to a hospital if something went wrong. In my opinion, that showed very poor judgment. She misrepresents the safety of home births. She even trots out the old “death by medicine” canard. She claims that statins may only benefit 1 in 50 patients (true, but misleadingly alarmist when taken out of context as statins do save lives).

"Conclusion: Marchant has interesting ideas, but a bad title"

[1] David Gorski, 11 January 2016, "Is 'harnessing the power of placebo' worthwhile to treat anything?"

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-harnessing-the-power...

[2] Harriet Hall, 26 January 2016, "Cure Is About Caring, Not Curing: Placebos, Alternative Medicine, and Patient Comfort"

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cure-is-about-caring-no...

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#23

Post by vorotato » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 8:34 PM UTC

saulrh wrote: post #10

So, the immediate followup: drugs out there that I could preemptively condition myself for that would be particularly useful in the future. Like, could I condition an epinephrine response so I have a more reliable response to an unknown allergy than hoping someone has an epipen?

Just bring your own epipen. I would not risk not being able to "believe".

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#24

Post by lukev » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 8:37 PM UTC

iamcurious wrote: post #6

narrator wrote: post #2

Wim Hoff [1] is a great example of someone who can turn a lot of the knobs on his metabolism that aren't available to most of us. Apparently, he says it's something you can learn to do. If these researchers got more concrete about how patients can learn to do this and to get physiologically measurable effects, it would actually certainly lower health care costs. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof

Interesting. There has been at least one study about him and his techniques: Healthy volunteers practicing the learned techniques exhibited profound increases in the release of epinephrine, which in turn led to increased production of anti-inflammatory mediators and subsequent dampening of the proinflammatory cytokine response elicited by intravenous administration of bacterial endotoxin. This study could have import…

If I read the methods correctly, then how does this fall into the category of "learned behavior"?

Exposing the body to these temperature extremes, which are far outside the norms most of us experience and which must induce borderline hypothermia, surely has its own physiological effect.

I don't doubt the effect can be beneficial, but that seems squarely in the camp of physical treatment as opposed to "thinking" yourself into a different bodily state.

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#25

Post by lukev » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 8:40 PM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #18

My bullshit detectors are leaping off the charts. There are so many completely uncontrolled experiments described there, and the article just jumps to the conclusion that they demonstrate an effect. Add on top that the theory makes not a fleck of sense, and you have no credibility left.

I agree it's not rigorous, but it's not necessarily bullshit.

We know the placebo effect is quite strong (stronger than we can fully account for, in fact.)

Postulating that it is possible to engage the placebo effect voluntarily is an interesting claim, but given that the placebo effect does exist it is not, on the face of it, impossible.

I'm definitely interested in more rigorous research in this area.

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#26

Post by blurbleblurble » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

Let me just remind everyone that "mind" and "body" are constructs. (I'm looking at you, "skeptics".)

for example: http://news.wisc.edu/study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-w...

If unspecified "mindfulness" can have such fundamental physical effects, I'm having a hard time seeing how direct psychosomatic engagement is so far fetched. Truly, while the Wisconsin studies are lumping participants' psychosomatic experiences into a broad category of "mindfulness meditation", every participants experience of "mindfulness meditation" was a unique journey into the depths of their inner world, mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually; these categories are different angles on one thing: the experience of the human animal.

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#27

Post by mariodiana » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 8:56 PM UTC

I'll share a funny story that's on topic, if you don't mind.

Years and years ago, I worked as a house painter. One of the guys on the crew was a guy who went by the name Mugsy. Mugsy had a bit of a cocaine habit. Since he was a lifelong friend of the boss, this was tolerated. In any case, Mugsy worked off and on.

The boss told me once about what would happen with Mugsy on payday. The boss would pay Mugsy at the end of the day, and then they would all get in the van for the ride home. The boss told me that cocaine is often cut with baking soda, which can act as a laxative. Mugsy would be in the van on the ride home, with a pocket full of money, just dreaming about being able to spend some of that money on cocaine. The boss reasoned that Mugsy's body must have associated money with cocaine with the laxative effect of the baking soda — because every payday, Mugsy would be farting for the entire ride home. He couldn't help himself!

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#28

Post by kyberias » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 8:57 PM UTC

mariodiana wrote: post #27

I'll share a funny story that's on topic, if you don't mind. Years and years ago, I worked as a house painter. One of the guys on the crew was a guy who went by the name Mugsy. Mugsy had a bit of a cocaine habit. Since he was a lifelong friend of the boss, this was tolerated. In any case, Mugsy worked off and on. The boss told me once about what would happen with Mugsy on payday. The boss would pay Mugsy at the end o…

I didn't mind one bit. Thank you for this.

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#29

Post by glynjackson » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

Quote: "By the end of the year, she had received just six doses of the drug instead of the usual twelve. Marette responded just as her doctors would have hoped from the full drug amount."

I'm sorry, at this point I stopped reading. The Doctors don't know how she would have responded to the full drug, because it didn't happen! The word 'hoped' is not testable! Where was the control (Quasi-experiment)? There is just not way to tell if she would have responded better, for all we know she was 50% better than she could have been if she'd taken the full 12 doses. Or maybe 6 doses was just the right amount for her.

I do believe that the brain is a powerful tool and have read research that shows we can change things like body heat, pain and more with mind, but this story did not have anything that evaluated the impact and cannot be used as evidence of such!

Re: You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine

#30

Post by horsecaptin » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 9:17 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #24

iamcurious wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. There has been at least one study about him and his techniques: Healthy volunteers practicing the learned techniques exhibited profound increases in the release of epinephrine, which in turn led to increased production of anti-inflammatory mediators and subsequent dampening of the proinflammatory cytokine response elicited by intravenous administration of bacterial endotoxin. This study could have import…

If I read the methods correctly, then how does this fall into the category of "learned behavior"? Exposing the body to these temperature extremes, which are far outside the norms most of us experience and which must induce borderline hypothermia, surely has its own physiological effect. I don't doubt the effect can be beneficial, but that seems squarely in the camp of physical treatment as opposed to "thinking" yours…

I think perhaps people look at Wim Hof and think, "ok so I have to go swimming in a lake of snow to make this work.

Cold showers are pretty awesome - you'll need all of your will-power to get into one, after a minute or two of discomfort your body will adjust -- especially if you think warm thoughts. And you'll come out feeling great!