20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence • Hacker News Board

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#21

Post by vinceguidry » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

Every frontier eventually gets integrated into civilization. It's only a matter of time. Civilization brings its laws and its infrastructure and its masses of people. As civilization is bigger than the frontier, the frontiersmen either have to civilize themselves, or move on to another frontier.

The nice thing about the Internet is that it is particularly hard to civilize. It's incredibly hard to wrap laws, which have to be enforced, around information technology. There is always more information than there is people to look at it. So the Internet offers an "endless frontier" of sorts. The Chinese government is famously grappling with this.

Such a thing is not unprecedented, there are plenty of arenas where there is always going to be room for intrepid settlers to voyage to and scrape out an individualistic experience in. Academia is such a place. Doesn't matter how civilized the university gets, there is always room for more people pushing the boundaries of institutionalized knowledge.

We should welcome society into the Internet. Powerful ideas are bigger than even society, so the Internet will forever remain a place where good ideas thrive. It is society that will be changed by the Internet, not the Internet by society. Society will make its settlements, and people fearful of the rough frontier lifestyle will cling to these settlements, but it won't keep them safe from the powerful ideas generated further out.

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#22

Post by rayiner » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 8:53 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #21

Every frontier eventually gets integrated into civilization. It's only a matter of time. Civilization brings its laws and its infrastructure and its masses of people. As civilization is bigger than the frontier, the frontiersmen either have to civilize themselves, or move on to another frontier. The nice thing about the Internet is that it is particularly hard to civilize. It's incredibly hard to wrap laws, which hav…

At the same time, the larger civilization is changed even as it integrates the frontier. American culture changed enormously as it integrated the frontier territories, Texas, and California.

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#23

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

jcoffland wrote: post #10

oniMaker wrote: post #5

The message is probably one we can all get behind in principle. However, the internet has a real, physical infrastructure that is definitely owned and operated by behemoth organizations like governments and private corporations. In fact, the Internet was created by a government. What makes you think they'd give it up willingly? If you want to create your own internet, you certainly can. But even if you find the monet…

Think very long distance wireless. It has yet to be invented but I believe one day it will be possible to communicate point-to-point across the globe with low power devices at high bandwidths. Such a technology would make these arguments moot. Certainly we have to be practical about our present situation but the broader idea of cyberspace is not limited to current technology. In 1996 moderates would have laugh if you…

[deleted]

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#24

Post by rayiner » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 8:57 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #8

Well, that didn't work out. Back in the 1930s, there was a similar enthusiasm about air travel. Watch H. G. Wells "Things to Come".[1] "Wings over the World", indeed. There was a repeat of this in the Space Age, ("We came in peace for all mankind") but that didn't last long. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn76zoYjr4k

There is always a lot of enthusiasm about technology that is ultimately tempered by cold hard reality. When I grew up in the 1990's, computers in the classroom were going to change education. But that idea is a farce today. Same thing with space travel, supersonic flight, nuclear power, etc. The landscape is littered with the bones of techno-optimist dreams from the 1980's and 1990's.

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#25

Post by marssaxman » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #21

Every frontier eventually gets integrated into civilization. It's only a matter of time. Civilization brings its laws and its infrastructure and its masses of people. As civilization is bigger than the frontier, the frontiersmen either have to civilize themselves, or move on to another frontier. The nice thing about the Internet is that it is particularly hard to civilize. It's incredibly hard to wrap laws, which hav…

I was always happy to welcome individual people into Internet society, but after offline society swamped us, there really isn't an Internet society anymore, and I miss it.

I'd have struck out for the next frontier years ago if I had any idea where it was.

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#26

Post by Raphmedia » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC

marssaxman wrote: post #25

vinceguidry wrote: post #21

Every frontier eventually gets integrated into civilization. It's only a matter of time. Civilization brings its laws and its infrastructure and its masses of people. As civilization is bigger than the frontier, the frontiersmen either have to civilize themselves, or move on to another frontier. The nice thing about the Internet is that it is particularly hard to civilize. It's incredibly hard to wrap laws, which hav…

I was always happy to welcome individual people into Internet society, but after offline society swamped us, there really isn't an Internet society anymore, and I miss it. I'd have struck out for the next frontier years ago if I had any idea where it was.

Tor and the "deep web" was a nice frontier to play with until it got reduced to its current state (pedophilia and drugs).

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#27

Post by vinceguidry » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 9:24 PM UTC

marssaxman wrote: post #25

vinceguidry wrote: post #21

Every frontier eventually gets integrated into civilization. It's only a matter of time. Civilization brings its laws and its infrastructure and its masses of people. As civilization is bigger than the frontier, the frontiersmen either have to civilize themselves, or move on to another frontier. The nice thing about the Internet is that it is particularly hard to civilize. It's incredibly hard to wrap laws, which hav…

I was always happy to welcome individual people into Internet society, but after offline society swamped us, there really isn't an Internet society anymore, and I miss it. I'd have struck out for the next frontier years ago if I had any idea where it was.

The world has frontiers for days. Everywhere society isn't, is a frontier. Every idea has a fringe of people that are out on the edges of that idea. Bitcoin, weight-lifting, Indian-Mexican fusion cuisine, van-dwelling. All these things have groups of people that operate outside of the norm, who have made sacrifices to exist more strongly in that space.

The Internet has made finding a frontier to settle in easier than ever.

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#28

Post by digi_owl » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 9:52 PM UTC

Raphmedia wrote: post #26

marssaxman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was always happy to welcome individual people into Internet society, but after offline society swamped us, there really isn't an Internet society anymore, and I miss it. I'd have struck out for the next frontier years ago if I had any idea where it was.

Tor and the "deep web" was a nice frontier to play with until it got reduced to its current state (pedophilia and drugs).

I find myself wondering if there are some groups out there that wants us to make that association, when Tor can be used for anything the net can be used.

Meaning it is a variant of "why do you want privacy if you have nothing to hide?" spiel.

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#29

Post by edward » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 10:05 PM UTC

knotty66 wrote: post #18

edward wrote: post #9

John Perry Barlow is recovering from a stroke. Here is at San Francisco's Ocean Beach: https://twitter.com/JPBarlow/status/692198084265254914

I think he had a heart attack, not a stroke.

Sorry, you're right. My mistake.

Re: 20 Years Since John Perry Barlow Declared Cyberspace Independence

#30

Post by marssaxman » Mon, Feb 08, 2016, 10:16 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #27

marssaxman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was always happy to welcome individual people into Internet society, but after offline society swamped us, there really isn't an Internet society anymore, and I miss it. I'd have struck out for the next frontier years ago if I had any idea where it was.

The world has frontiers for days. Everywhere society isn't, is a frontier. Every idea has a fringe of people that are out on the edges of that idea. Bitcoin, weight-lifting, Indian-Mexican fusion cuisine, van-dwelling. All these things have groups of people that operate outside of the norm, who have made sacrifices to exist more strongly in that space. The Internet has made finding a frontier to settle in easier than…

Maybe so, but those are little subcultures with small horizons; the future doesn't live there, the way it used to live on the Internet. I'm not just looking for people to hang out with, I'm looking for the next big thing, the next opportunity to help undermine the old power structures and build something better.