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Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

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Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#21

Post by AlisdairO »

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #11
cwan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a historical context, I do find it a bit odd this fear of "corporations". It's really difficult to argue that they function in any way as a cohesive group. Sure it can be argued that they're all profit seeking (some more than others) but the search of profits is done in such radically different ways. If anything, the power of corporations has been lessening simply because of the nature of the net/web (just think…

in a market the search for profit is the search for more efficiently serving aggregate preferences of consumers. allowing corporations to assume disproportionate control of the political process is almost assuredly a net improvement.

That's clearly false. A really simple example is antitrust legislation - if MS (or any other monopolistic organisation) were able to remove regulation on monopolies, you can be assured that they would, and that the effect on our society would be dramatically negative.

Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#22

Post by tsally »

tjic wrote: post #8

When a group (whether it's citizens with a hobby, a union, a corporation, or a church) sees that government is throwing it's $3 Trillion/year bulk around in their neighborhood, they - rationally - try to buy off the government so that it does not destroy them or do them harm. The solution is not to restrict speech - the solution is to get politics out of so many questions by getting the government out of those issues…

Your analysis is spot on until your last sentence. Not only do you misuse the word statist in a structural sense (government statist is redundant in this context), you incorrectly apply it to Lessig's politics. You're points are valid without your last sentence and I hope you'll get rid of it.

I'd like you to explain how these political positions of Lessig are statist please:

* Reduced legal restrictions of copyright and patents

* Citizen funded campaign finance

* Increased government transparency and accountability

Clearly he believes the sovereignty of a nation lies with the people, not the government. So again I ask you, without agreeing or disagreeing with Lessig's politics, can you clearly explain why you believe politically Lessig is a statist.

Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#23

Post by jbooth »

azgolfer wrote: post #10
tjic wrote: post #8

When a group (whether it's citizens with a hobby, a union, a corporation, or a church) sees that government is throwing it's $3 Trillion/year bulk around in their neighborhood, they - rationally - try to buy off the government so that it does not destroy them or do them harm. The solution is not to restrict speech - the solution is to get politics out of so many questions by getting the government out of those issues…

Yes and the brilliance of the founders was creating a very limited federal government. The aristocratic senate and the house 'of the people' had to agree. The bill would get vetoed by default. One senator could stop any bill by filibustering. The bill of rights prevented state governments from gettting out of control...

The abuse of the filibuster for one senator to stop a bill is actually a recent parliamentary invention. There's no constitutional mechanism for the filibuster, it's based on senate rules which are adopted every 2 years.

Historically, 40 senators could prevent debate from being cut off but they would need to all occupy the chamber and actually be debating the whole time. See Strom Thurmond reading the phone book on the senate floor during the civil rights filibusters, for example.

But that took a bunch of time, time you could be at fundraisers or hanging out at home or whatever. So they made it easier over recent years, with the result that the current Senate filibusters more than twice as much as the last one, which itself filibustered more than historically, etc.

Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#24

Post by bballant »

kiba wrote: post #7
bballant wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I agree that amending the constitution takes things too far, I also think that corporations already have too much influence on American lives and I disagree with the recent SCOTUS decision because it validates that influence to a degree. I think the real solution (to corporate and government overreach) is to consume less, buy local, invest local, use community banks, etc (and also, to think about who we vote…

What with the whole "buy local" and "invest local" idea? Have you ever the of the word "trade" and "merchants"? Do you "buy"? There's a reason for "specialization" and "division of labor". It's why we're so wealthy, because of our economy's vast ability to make stuff and transport stuff. Utilize people's comparative advantage, we can produce more unit of goods than we would otherwise if we do not specialize and trade…

When you invest and buy local, you support your community and the people around you which often improves your community. It's easier to see or find out how the thing is made or how the money gets used. So, it's less likely you'll find lead in your toys or find a 14 year old picking your fruit. You are also closer to where whatever it is you bought is made and the people/company in which you are investing, which can mean fewer transactions, less taxes, less regulation, and overall less government and corporate involvement.

Locally produced food is the most obvious, practical thing to buy because it is fresher an tastes better which should be compelling enough on it's own.

I'm not saying don't trade, I just think we should think about what we're buying a bit more. As Fugazi said, "Never mind what they're selling, it's what you're buying!" Heh.

Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#25

Post by jokull »

jamesbritt wrote: post #17
jokull wrote: post #15

As a non American: Is it not obvious that a politician accepting money to mould policy is bad for the bottom line? Also slightly related - why is it acceptable to persuade a court to release suspects by simply paying them bail money in England and America? Money walks all over morals.

"Also slightly related - why is it acceptable to persuade a court to release suspects by simply paying them bail money in England and America?" You get it back if you make all of your court appearances. it's way to help ensure that people charged wth a crime don't flee. "Money walks all over morals." How so? Would it be better to keep people in jail simply because they've been accused of a crime? If everyone was trus…

Aaaah. I didn't know you'd get the money back for showing up in court. Why not just fine people who don't show up then?

I'm not suggesting you put all suspects in jail.

Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#26

Post by bballant »

gaius wrote: post #18
cwan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a historical context, I do find it a bit odd this fear of "corporations". It's really difficult to argue that they function in any way as a cohesive group. Sure it can be argued that they're all profit seeking (some more than others) but the search of profits is done in such radically different ways. If anything, the power of corporations has been lessening simply because of the nature of the net/web (just think…

Replace "corporations" with "witches" and you'll see it for the Mediaeval superstitious ranting that it is.

I know you're trying to be incendiary, and I don't think corporations are evil, but I will give you an example of corporations acting like witches. Look up redlining (implicates the government as well).

Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#27

Post by fnid2 »

tjic wrote: post #8

When a group (whether it's citizens with a hobby, a union, a corporation, or a church) sees that government is throwing it's $3 Trillion/year bulk around in their neighborhood, they - rationally - try to buy off the government so that it does not destroy them or do them harm. The solution is not to restrict speech - the solution is to get politics out of so many questions by getting the government out of those issues…

what's wrong with allowing each member of that large group to petition congress, to "speak" so to speak independently.

If every employee of GM wants to donate $2k to Obama, great, let them. If GM wants to donate $2M to Obama -- no way!

Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#28

Post by balding_n_tired »

azgolfer wrote: post #10
tjic wrote: post #8

When a group (whether it's citizens with a hobby, a union, a corporation, or a church) sees that government is throwing it's $3 Trillion/year bulk around in their neighborhood, they - rationally - try to buy off the government so that it does not destroy them or do them harm. The solution is not to restrict speech - the solution is to get politics out of so many questions by getting the government out of those issues…

Yes and the brilliance of the founders was creating a very limited federal government. The aristocratic senate and the house 'of the people' had to agree. The bill would get vetoed by default. One senator could stop any bill by filibustering. The bill of rights prevented state governments from gettting out of control...

The Bill of Rights did not apply to the state governments until the 14th Amendment was interpreted to so apply them. Thus you had established churches in several states during the early years of the republic.

Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#29

Post by lollynoob »

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #13
kiba wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What with the whole "buy local" and "invest local" idea? Have you ever the of the word "trade" and "merchants"? Do you "buy"? There's a reason for "specialization" and "division of labor". It's why we're so wealthy, because of our economy's vast ability to make stuff and transport stuff. Utilize people's comparative advantage, we can produce more unit of goods than we would otherwise if we do not specialize and trade…

can never be overstated. TRADE IS CIVILIZATION! voluntary exchange for mutual benefit is the most powerful incentive against violent conflict. preventing powers from externalizing the costs of conflict onto others is the most important issue facing the world. it is holding back all other progress.

Not everyone thinks progress should be the ultimate goal, though.

Re: Lawrence Lessig: How to Get Our Democracy Back

#30

Post by azgolfer »

bballant wrote: post #26
gaius wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace "corporations" with "witches" and you'll see it for the Mediaeval superstitious ranting that it is.

I know you're trying to be incendiary, and I don't think corporations are evil, but I will give you an example of corporations acting like witches. Look up redlining (implicates the government as well).

Yes, and the Fannie/Frdedie mortgage meltdown IMO was the result of government 'reverse' redlining.
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