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Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

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Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#21

Post by wfo »

Is this a good thing? I'm reminded of the "well-meaning" pushes by large tech companies to flood the market with immigrant labor and drive salaries down.

Though I wouldn't say this is malicious I think it may have the same effect. We will get many, many more bad programmers. We still have no good way to tell a good programmer apart from a bad one. We have no licensing, we have no professional organization, we have no standards.

Right now the barrier for entry is really, really low for an upper or middle class person who wants to learn about programming and CS. For the poor, what good is CS if you don't have regular access to a computer? How many graduating seniors in poor communities own their own laptops? Have consistent internet access? I think a pledge like this needs to focus all of its attention on low-income students for it to be worthwhile.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#23

Post by wfo »

throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

I think you're overestimating how hard CS is compared to other fields (hint: it's not harder). They teach calculus in high school. And calculus-based physics. They have autoshop and woodshop which is honestly very similar to the kind of CS I would imagine high school students learning (understanding systems, debugging, building them, learning which pieces fit where and how to make them do what you want, following tutorials and being able to figure things out when they go wrong)

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#24

Post by wfo »

rayiner wrote: post #20
mempko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public education should not be about making good workforce for capitalists. It has a higher purpose.

Sure, but where does math and science fit into that higher purpose? I think the focus on those is actually driven by the (futile) desire to please capitalists--because good paying jobs often require those skills. If we're talking about educating citizens, I think it'd be way more valuable to replace chemistry and physics with courses in the philosophy of science and algebra and geometry with courses in logic and stat…

Uhh, I don't know what planet you're living on where people don't need to use algebra. Almost everybody I know uses algebra regularly. How do you suggest we do statistics or any kind of science or teach kids anything about the world without first teaching algebra? Formal logic is essentially a more abstract and complicated algebra which isn't useful in real life.

And understanding the world around you (science) and learning the language that the world works in (math) are worthwhile in and of themselves for every student just as general human knowledge. Removing science from the basic curriculum entirely is absurd at its face unless we allow, for example free college for everyone. It's essentially saying "the poor can't learn about the natural world".

You can't say that since sometimes teaching science to kids doesn't work we should just delete it from our entire educational program and not try. Most students get a lot out of chemistry and physics though many of them hate it. (note: often times the subject the students hate most are the ones that are most important; they hate doing hard work) They learn that mysterious phenomena are not so mysterious, they are just complicated and can be understood and controlled with some study and some mathematics and experiments. This is an invaluable lesson for students to see hands-on and cannot be removed from curricula.

I think the focus on things like tech, and people saying "not everyone needs to go to college" are driven by the desire to please capitalists.

Academic studies in logic (well, formal logic) are I think overrated as far as their ability to train students to think rigorously and carefully is concerned. Though I agree with you 100% on philosophy, and high schools already teach statistics. Informal logic and rhetoric, yes. Ethics, yes. Philosophy of , yes. Statistics, sure, once they know enough mathematics to begin to understand it.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#26

Post by nacs »

grandDesigns wrote: post #12
throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

Right now, every single high school has (or, should have) teachers that can teach Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Calculus. Basic Java Programming is waaaaay easier to learn to any one of those.

Learning a programming language is also about as difficult (and probably easier for some) than learning a foreign language (Spanish, French, etc) for 1-2 years which most states require.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#27

Post by codingdave »

throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

Most people are not going to be novelists, but all students learn to write. Most people are not going to be mathematicians, but they all learn basic math. Sure, if you are bad at it, it will frustrate you. Go talk to any 10 year old and you will find this is already true for existing subject. Pick any subject - learning it in school doesn't mean you are going to do it for a career, but it is part of education so that you understand enough to get by in a world where those subjects are important. It is also an opportunity for kids who do excel at it to learn that at a younger age and have more time to develop their abilities. but we are talking about basic education, not bootcamps to turn every kid into a coder.

Also, the existing programs are finding that you don't need, or even want, computer science teachers to be teaching kids. You want professional educators, who understand children and their development, to teach kids. Again, we're talking a basic level of curriculum, so having a professional elementary educator learn a new curriculum is working quite well already.

As far as actually developing that curriculum, code.org is a really good basis for it, which many local programs are using. most supplement it with additional material, and I know of at least one program that is funding grants to districts to develop their own local programs, while at the same time formalizing curriculum in a way that they can be shared nationwide with districts that have not yet had the resources to create their own.

This is not a new idea coming from the government that needs to be tried - it is an existing idea already succeeding in some districts that may receive funding to expand.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#28

Post by samfisher83 »

wfo wrote: post #21

Is this a good thing? I'm reminded of the "well-meaning" pushes by large tech companies to flood the market with immigrant labor and drive salaries down. Though I wouldn't say this is malicious I think it may have the same effect. We will get many, many more bad programmers. We still have no good way to tell a good programmer apart from a bad one. We have no licensing, we have no professional organization, we have no…

I think computers are pretty prevalent.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#29

Post by harryh »

dragonwriter wrote: post #16
rayiner wrote: post #13

Only a tiny fraction of the population needs to understand computer science. Most people will struggle through it, learn to hate it, and immediately forget it after they graduate, just as they do with math and science. Meanwhile, college professors will have to spend inordinate amounts of time unteaching all the stupid things kids learned in K-12, because there is no way to structure these curricula in a way that ser…

I disagree with your claim about the impossibility.of broadly accessible foundational CS that is still good ground for majors; not only so I think it's possible , but I think at least one viable approach already exists in How to Design Programs -- the text itself may not be ideal for secondary students (though IIRC is been used successfully at that level), but the basic method and approach for teaching computing as a…

Worth considering:

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/stupider-than-you-real...

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#30

Post by afarrell »

mempko wrote: post #17
rayiner wrote: post #13

Only a tiny fraction of the population needs to understand computer science. Most people will struggle through it, learn to hate it, and immediately forget it after they graduate, just as they do with math and science. Meanwhile, college professors will have to spend inordinate amounts of time unteaching all the stupid things kids learned in K-12, because there is no way to structure these curricula in a way that ser…

Public education should not be about making good workforce for capitalists. It has a higher purpose.

> workforce for capitalists

Regardless of the reality of capitalism, work must be done in order for people to eat. That work could be actually plowing fields and picking fruit. Preferably, it is building and configuring machines to plow and pick.

Public education should be about enriching lives. A large part of that is teaching people the skills they can use to satisfy material needs.

All of this remained true under governments that humanity has so far built which strive to abolish capitalism. If you insist that we should not try to improve the human condition until we have abolished capitalism, then it is your burden to explain how to do that.

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