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On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

paul-m-jones.com

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Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#21

Post by thescribe »

exstudent2 wrote: post #15
Bahamut wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forking is an extraordinary measure, and often not practical - that is usually a very poor option. Personally, I disagree with your approach to dealing with a toxic community. Having done moderation in various forums/chat rooms & now open source for almost 12 years, that's usually an approach that encourages poor behavior through insufficient action. As to a solution, I don't know what would be the best way to preven…

The thing is these communities aren't actually toxic. Large open source projects take patches based on merit. Lots of people don't even have human identifiable usernames or avatars on Github and yet get patches accepted. The real toxic behavior that's been happening in open source over the past 5 or so years is the influx of non-developers forcing their political causes into projects and distracting from actual devel…

I think you stated that better than I ever could.

I perceive a code of conduct as colonization, and the arguments/drama as a beachhead.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#22

Post by thescribe »

Bahamut wrote: post #6

This post seems to be complaining about oppression, but doesn't seem to address the opposite end, oppressive attitudes/terminology used to intimidate those advocating for social equality. It offers no pathway to making the situation better. This sort of discussion seems to go in an endless loop since one side wants to advocate for equality & try to use as many tools as possible to that end, while the other side does…

How is the status quo undesired?

I contribute to open source, I get to use quality open source, and so does anyone else who cares to.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#23

Post by dang »

CoCplusgood wrote: post #17
mooseburger wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you think it wouldn't make it? Does HN have a policy to avoid anything related to the SJW mess? Genuinely curious, I'm a new user.

Yes. Things like this often get memory-holed. I don't know if it's by users or mods, but because I have showdead on and this post still can't be found on the front (or next) page, I tend to think the latter. It also doesn't say "flagged" on it.

No moderator touched this post. It doesn't say [flagged] because we only print that when the thread is dead (closed to new comments) and the software doesn't kill threads when there's an active discussion.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#24

Post by dang »

gherkin0 wrote: post #19
CoCplusgood wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Things like this often get memory-holed. I don't know if it's by users or mods, but because I have showdead on and this post still can't be found on the front (or next) page, I tend to think the latter. It also doesn't say "flagged" on it.

This is a weird post: it's been popping on and off the front page for me, which might have something to do with the "vouch" feature I just learned about. It seems like it's the object of a tug-of-war.

That's exactly what it is.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#25

Post by AcerbicZero »

Bahamut wrote: post #6

This post seems to be complaining about oppression, but doesn't seem to address the opposite end, oppressive attitudes/terminology used to intimidate those advocating for social equality. It offers no pathway to making the situation better. This sort of discussion seems to go in an endless loop since one side wants to advocate for equality & try to use as many tools as possible to that end, while the other side does…

I'm no expert on the topic, but bemoaning the death of nuance and the invasion of identity politics doesn't automatically count as an attempt to maintain the status quo. It's just a rejection of a specific solution and/or the methods such a solution calls for.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#26

Post by CoCplusgood »

dang wrote: post #24
gherkin0 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird post: it's been popping on and off the front page for me, which might have something to do with the "vouch" feature I just learned about. It seems like it's the object of a tug-of-war.

That's exactly what it is.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm sorry that my misunderstanding of the UI, and some bias around the subject, led to conspiratorial thinking.

I wish the community didn't have such a slim tolerance for discussion of this subject that's not uniformly toeing the progressive line, as I thought this was fair in tone and argument, but if I'm in the minority, it's nothing to go nuts about. I can see both sides.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#27

Post by dang »

CoCplusgood wrote: post #26
dang wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what it is.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm sorry that my misunderstanding of the UI, and some bias around the subject, led to conspiratorial thinking. I wish the community didn't have such a slim tolerance for discussion of this subject that's not uniformly toeing the progressive line, as I thought this was fair in tone and argument, but if I'm in the minority, it's nothing to go nuts about. I can see both sides.

Posts about this and related topics get heavily flagged regardless of what side they're on. I don't see the community in toto as driven ideologically one way or the other, though obviously some subgroups are.

We turn the flags off sometimes when an article is particularly substantive. For example, we did that yesterday for https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10923885, because that article was factual and had historical value. When we do that, though, it isn't because we agree or disagree ideologically.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#28

Post by allendoerfer »

I think there should not be any Code of Conduct in OSS projects. I like the BDFL model more. If the BDFL does not like what you do, you are out of luck. Join or create a fork. If what the BDFL likes does not resonate, nobody will contribute and the project will die.

I think hacking was never about politics through words. Sure hackers might had or have an agenda, but their weapon is programming not writing. I have nothing against political activists who use writing as their tool of choice, but there are plenty of groups you can join and do that. For me it makes no sense to mix the two concepts together and scare away actual hackers who just want to write code.

If you do not like the community, fork it. That is was everybody does for technical or political reasons, why should there be written rules for stuff most people like to do as a hobby in their free time?

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#29

Post by deadowl »

CoCplusgood wrote: post #26
dang wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what it is.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm sorry that my misunderstanding of the UI, and some bias around the subject, led to conspiratorial thinking. I wish the community didn't have such a slim tolerance for discussion of this subject that's not uniformly toeing the progressive line, as I thought this was fair in tone and argument, but if I'm in the minority, it's nothing to go nuts about. I can see both sides.

It seems more of an effort to retain people working on the project that fall into the protected categories, and losing those people is a real possibility if someone else's negative attitudes get back to them, regardless of whether they're vocal about it.

I'm not sure whether I think the public spaces bit should apply to everyone though. Certainly project leadership should be held to it if that's what they're aspiring to.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#30

Post by zephod »

dang wrote: post #23
CoCplusgood wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Things like this often get memory-holed. I don't know if it's by users or mods, but because I have showdead on and this post still can't be found on the front (or next) page, I tend to think the latter. It also doesn't say "flagged" on it.

No moderator touched this post. It doesn't say [flagged] because we only print that when the thread is dead (closed to new comments) and the software doesn't kill threads when there's an active discussion.

It did say [Flagged] for a while, though. I was reading the discussion and it bounced in-and-out of existence while I was trying to contribute. The Reply button would disappear; at one point the link and title were removed, then restored. I guess this is what the Vouch system is for.
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