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The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

stevenwei.com

21–30 of 43 posts

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#21
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't ActionScript completely open? And the flash framework is open too. You don't need Flash CS4 to use flash. You can also program it with a third party IDE and then use the free compiler. This would be quite comparable.

what parts of flash are not open? When flash opened those parts you mentioned? do their knowledge and control of the closed parts of flash enables them to build better tools? how big a lead did they have for their tools when they opened those parts of flash ? Are they still today the leader in flash tools so maybe it's not worthwhile for a competitor to enter? I really don't know flash in depth , but my guess is that…

"what parts of flash are not open?"

The source code of the Adobe Flash plugin, if nothing else.

Incidentally, that does bring to mind one possible Hail Mary that could work: Open source the Flash player(s). Whether the open source community could fix performance issues on Linux and OSX depends on a lot of things, but they could certainly fix some things that would make it less aggravating.

(Since it's probably impossible to open source as-is due to licensing agreements it still might not work; depends on how much of the plugin is still left after you've removed those bits.)

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that they are good enough at building browser runtimes that theirs has 90%+ market saturation, and is an industry standard. Now open is another issue...

Seriously? Did Adobe beat you guys up and take away your computer? Did they say "no no no mine?" Where is the "not open" you guys claim? Flex SDK + Eclipse == free Flash development. I swear HTML5 fanatics just make stuff up these days. You'll use Windows, Flickr, Google, and Hacker News - all privately owned systems. But god forbid Flash is bad because... why?

Open != free.

Lack of openness: a browser plugin that is less stable and slower on Mac and Linux that noone else can fix except Adobe...and only if they choose to do so.

Lack of openness: a browser plugin that doesn't properly utilize cookies on non-IE browsers that noone else can fix except Adobe...and only if they choose to do so.

Lack of openness: a browser plugin that doesn't properly return HTTP status codes on OS X that noone else can fix except Adobe...and only if they choose to do so.

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#23
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that they are good enough at building browser runtimes that theirs has 90%+ market saturation, and is an industry standard. Now open is another issue...

Seriously? Did Adobe beat you guys up and take away your computer? Did they say "no no no mine?" Where is the "not open" you guys claim? Flex SDK + Eclipse == free Flash development. I swear HTML5 fanatics just make stuff up these days. You'll use Windows, Flickr, Google, and Hacker News - all privately owned systems. But god forbid Flash is bad because... why?

You're assuming everyone posting replies and that the author of the post are all HTML5 fanatics. Have you considered that many of us might have worked heavily in Flash/Flex for years designing website and applications, and that possibly the uprising against Flash mentioned here involves Linux Flash plugins seg faulting with no error messages, crazy Flex binding memory usage, general CPU overload and a horrible debug log policy due to sandboxing? I'd be interested to hear why you think Flash is good. Incidentally, who's using Windows? :)

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#24
I think some people are forgetting that Flash is used for more than just serving up video and pop-under ads (though admittedly that would be its largest use).

There are a lot of games that may not be possible to run on an HTML 5 canvas.

Also, lost in this discussion is the fact that one of the more popular browsers doesn't support HTML 5 in its current version or possibly even its next.

Does streaming video work under HTML 5 specs? If not, that's another thing that Flash can do, which you can't with html5.

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#25
post #5

Eh. The best way for Adobe to save it is to open source the plugin though I suspect the resulting fragmentation would be a hindrance as well. A certification process of some kind might be helpful in that regard though. I'm sure there are patent and licensing issues getting in the way of such a move.

I'm sure Adobe will open source the parts of Flash they own.

They will just do it too late for it to make a difference.

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#26
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implementations may differ, but the main use-cases are the same. So it's like comparing an apple to an orange when you want to choose a healthy supplement to your diet ;)

The anti-Flash crowd with their fantasy about how HTML5 >= Flash are missing one phenomenally tragic detail ... We're going to have HTML5 for the next twenty years - and right now it's only a sometimes substitute for Flash. If you think HTML5 is going to meet your requirements for the next 20 or more years.. well, assuming you're pushing 30 like me we're actually going to be close to retirement age by the time HTML5…

"We're going to have HTML5 for the next twenty years..."

Everybody's going to get up to speed with implementation of HTML5 and then ... stop? The story of HTML5 so far has been a mix of browsers chasing/leading the standards. In other words, the standards and the browsers are evolving together rapidly. I don't see why that would stop anytime soon. Certainly all this innovation won't ground to a halt when HTML5 submits their final release to the W3C (or whatever the next "formal" step is at this point).

Will there be some instance of an installed browser today that will still be running on a machine somewhere in 20 years? Well, probably... but remember that guy a couple of years ago that still had a CP/M system running his business? He wasn't holding anybody back.

And once everybody's on modern, standards-compliant browsers (and thus there's less friction for upgrading, i.e. there's no more "all our corporate apps only run in IE6"), I expect far more people will upgrade far more often. The web is at a really, really exciting time if you ask me.

So: non-Flash web technologies can reliably handle some percentage of Flash use cases today. Certainly more than a couple of years ago, and that appears to be about to go up again a lot more as HTML5 sweeps across the web. The number of use cases that require Flash are going to continue to get smaller and smaller over time. When will Flash be utterly irrelevant to the average user? I don't know. But WAY less than 20 years from now.

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-Flash crowd with their fantasy about how HTML5 >= Flash are missing one phenomenally tragic detail ... We're going to have HTML5 for the next twenty years - and right now it's only a sometimes substitute for Flash. If you think HTML5 is going to meet your requirements for the next 20 or more years.. well, assuming you're pushing 30 like me we're actually going to be close to retirement age by the time HTML5…

"We're going to have HTML5 for the next twenty years..." Everybody's going to get up to speed with implementation of HTML5 and then ... stop? The story of HTML5 so far has been a mix of browsers chasing/leading the standards. In other words, the standards and the browsers are evolving together rapidly. I don't see why that would stop anytime soon. Certainly all this innovation won't ground to a halt when HTML5 submit…

The current standards are a decade old already, HTML5 has been 6 years in the making and will probably be another 4 or 5 years before it reaches a market penetration that makes it an generally-viable design decision rather than what it is now - a device or browser specific option.

Work probably won't even start on the HTML6 specification for another decade at least while they wrap up all the formalities for HTML5, and identify where it needs improvement, and slowly discuss and agree on those improvements. Years after that browsers will start supporting it feature by feature, and years after that enough users will have access to enough features to call it mainstream.

That process is very likely to leave us having this same discussion about whether HTML6 will kill Flash in 2030. Assuming anyone still makes or cares about any of this stuff that far in the future.

Where we are now with HTML5 the void between HTML5 and plugins (Flash is just the most significant) is smaller than it's ever been before, but the fallacy of that argument is that Flash, Silverlight, JavaFX, Unity, etc are in active development and release cycles.

They make significant progress year after year, just like desktop software, operating systems, programming languages etc, and while HTML5 almost catches up right now this is as close as it's going to get at this time.

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We're going to have HTML5 for the next twenty years..." Everybody's going to get up to speed with implementation of HTML5 and then ... stop? The story of HTML5 so far has been a mix of browsers chasing/leading the standards. In other words, the standards and the browsers are evolving together rapidly. I don't see why that would stop anytime soon. Certainly all this innovation won't ground to a halt when HTML5 submit…

The current standards are a decade old already, HTML5 has been 6 years in the making and will probably be another 4 or 5 years before it reaches a market penetration that makes it an generally-viable design decision rather than what it is now - a device or browser specific option. Work probably won't even start on the HTML6 specification for another decade at least while they wrap up all the formalities for HTML5, an…

Keep in mind that they don't keep progressing linearly forever because of the nature of the service that's attempting to be provided -- neither are far off from being able to do basically all the things that can be done on a 2D panel attached to a speaker or two: interface device input, 2D/3D animation, sound effects/music, a bit of local persistence, access to the videocamera,... what else is there? I'm not sure of each's multitouch API, if any, but, really, there's not that much more beyond those things that HAS to be implemented for the vast majority of web pages and apps to fully function. Support for accelerometers and other such devices would be nice, but is hardly important to reading the New York Times or the other 99.999% of things people do/want to do with the web. Perhaps in 2030 there'll be argument about whether the web- or proprietary-way has the best support for holographic 3D displays or 360-channel surround sound, etc., but those and many other things that the two technologies don't support today seem likely to continue to overall be niche things. In other words, things whose proper role is a plug-in, not a vital part of many pages' experience. That's fine: there's going to be a role for plug-ins for a long, long time, perhaps forever. But, the fundamentals? We're getting pretty close to having them covered.

Also, I think it's well worth taking a good look at HTML5's rate of progress over the years. A huge chunk of the HTML5 effort has been toward just standardizing the response to the tag soup that is out there. That work is essentially done and doesn't have to be repeated. Just in the last year or two have things really taken off as far as adding new functionality to browsers and example pages, and it's only been in the last couple of months that a few actual commercial pages have started to use these things. In large part, that's because the web has been stuck for most of a decade because of IE stagnation. [Also note that the rest of the browser/platform vendors didn't seem to have a good mechanism to rapidly innovate together on until the HTML5 effort came together. I don't expect that that diplomatic work will have to be done again, either.] The web platform after the IE stagnation seems likely to move much faster toward covering the gaps that remain in the web platform.

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the existing tools are pretty awful... but they're generally made by small companies that don't know how to build tools, building on the current implementations of HTML, CSS, and Javascript. Has anyone given it a real shot, targeting the newest features of HTML5? Adobe on the other hand has built industry standard tools over and over again (Photoshop, Illustrator, etc). They've proven that they can export their a…

I'd argue that they are good enough at building browser runtimes that theirs has 90%+ market saturation, and is an industry standard. Now open is another issue...

[deleted]

Re: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it

#30
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Did Adobe beat you guys up and take away your computer? Did they say "no no no mine?" Where is the "not open" you guys claim? Flex SDK + Eclipse == free Flash development. I swear HTML5 fanatics just make stuff up these days. You'll use Windows, Flickr, Google, and Hacker News - all privately owned systems. But god forbid Flash is bad because... why?

Open != free. Lack of openness: a browser plugin that is less stable and slower on Mac and Linux that noone else can fix except Adobe...and only if they choose to do so. Lack of openness: a browser plugin that doesn't properly utilize cookies on non-IE browsers that noone else can fix except Adobe...and only if they choose to do so. Lack of openness: a browser plugin that doesn't properly return HTTP status codes on…

I think your comments here are off base.

The SWF standards (and associated standards like RTMP) are available for free on the Adobe website. You are permitted to construct alternative implementations based on this specification. I think it meets the definition of an open standard.

Would HTML not be an open standard if the only browser we had was IE, and it was horribly buggy? No - the quality of the available implementations is irrelevant to a standards "openness".

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