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The Last Dalai Lama?

nytimes.com

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Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#21

Post by jmagoon »

awl130 wrote: post #12
guard-of-terra wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can imagine things like what you describe (regarding Cherokee Nation) and I won't find that especially odd. But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently, making their case incomparable to that of Cherokee. Your parable is shaky. You seem to think that Dalai Lama issue is either solely about annoying China, or solely about self-presentation. It is not. People are…

Would it help you if it were "Free Hawai'i"? That timeline is comparable. Your last statement confuses me. What does Dalai Lama have to do with Buddhism? The Dalai Lama is not the head of Buddhism but the head of Tibet, which is a tribe seeking a political state. Tibetan Buddhism is a sect of Buddhism practiced beyond Tibetan borders. Much like a great many Shia Muslims live in Iran, but we would not confound Iranian…

The Dalai Lama is the head of Tibetan Buddhism, because Tibet is (was) a theocracy, much like the Pope is the head of the Papal State and the Catholic Church. (Though this is not an exact parallel due to to the distributed nature of the Tibetan Schools)

And, if you read the article, you would see that one of the major points is that the Dalai Lama has dissolved that connection (head of religion - head of state) only relatively recently.

Calling Tibet a 'tribe' is also a little bit strange, and smacks of the way Chinese propaganda reduces the legitimacy of Tibet's claim to nationhood (and even legitimate personhood), despite Tibet's governmental and territorial sovereignty from at least 1200 AD onward. Your claim that the "[Dalai Lama] is succeeding...at conflating religion and politics" is the direct Communist Party line, even though that is being directly contradicted by the source article.

My personal reading of the article is that the Dalai Lama gave up on statehood in the 80s, and is primarily focused on preserving Tibetan culture, despite the persistent claim that he is a "wolf in sheep's clothing", and that "every word he speaks is a lie".

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#22

Post by baldfat »

Alex3917 wrote: post #7
nkurz wrote: post #2

"The Dalai Lama’s second-oldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, helped the C.I.A. train Tibetan guerrillas in Colorado, among other places, and parachute them back into Tibet." I had no idea the US had done this. This link has more details: http://www.historynet.com/cias-secret-war-in-tibet.htm As does Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program

There are a couple books about it. The other place they trained them was in Ithaca, which is why there is still a big tibetan community there and that's where the Dalai Lama's summer home is. It's a pretty crazy story though; iirc after China found out about the program the CIA just disowned them rather than helping to further support or extract them, and just left them all over there to die.

Just like the Bay of Pigs.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#23

Post by atlantic »

awl130 wrote: post #12
guard-of-terra wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can imagine things like what you describe (regarding Cherokee Nation) and I won't find that especially odd. But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently, making their case incomparable to that of Cherokee. Your parable is shaky. You seem to think that Dalai Lama issue is either solely about annoying China, or solely about self-presentation. It is not. People are…

Would it help you if it were "Free Hawai'i"? That timeline is comparable. Your last statement confuses me. What does Dalai Lama have to do with Buddhism? The Dalai Lama is not the head of Buddhism but the head of Tibet, which is a tribe seeking a political state. Tibetan Buddhism is a sect of Buddhism practiced beyond Tibetan borders. Much like a great many Shia Muslims live in Iran, but we would not confound Iranian…

>What does Dalai Lama have to do with Buddhism? The Dalai Lama is not the head of Buddhism but the head of Tibet

The Dalai Lama is considered by religious Tibetans to be the incarnation of Avalokiteshvara, the Tibetan Buddhist deity that personifies compassion. So your question makes about as much sense as asking what Jesus has to do with Christianity.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#24

Post by jmagoon »

Alex3917 wrote: post #20
blinkingled wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years Invented by white folks? What? Did you perhaps mean they made it mainstream for white people by giving it a western flavor?

No, iirc the religion was constructed pretty much wholesale during the opium wars to convince people that the Chinese were an intelligent people with a rich cultural history who we shouldn't be genociding. There are a bunch of books about it, this blog post gives an overview of the situation and links to a bunch of the books: https://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/a-new-world-rel... I haven't really spent any t…

I can't tell if you are talking about actual Buddhism or "Western Buddhism". As in, are you dramatically misinterpreting your source document, or are you trying to say that the "Western Buddhism" we experience is not "Real Buddhism"?

from the article: "There was a problem. Buddhism, as actually found in Asia, was much more like the European idea of “paganism” than a “great world religion.”"

The site relates to current academic discussion of "Real Buddhism", but the field has been investigating primary sources (Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan, Chinese) for such a long time at this point as to make this article primarily a rant about "Western Buddhism" versus the more legitimate "Buddhisms".

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#25

Post by boxy310 »

Alex3917 wrote: post #20
blinkingled wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years Invented by white folks? What? Did you perhaps mean they made it mainstream for white people by giving it a western flavor?

No, iirc the religion was constructed pretty much wholesale during the opium wars to convince people that the Chinese were an intelligent people with a rich cultural history who we shouldn't be genociding. There are a bunch of books about it, this blog post gives an overview of the situation and links to a bunch of the books: https://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/a-new-world-rel... I haven't really spent any t…

From your link: >I’m afraid I may be accused of political incorrectness here. I hasten to say that I myself practice (at minimum) demon worship and abominable rituals.

I'm afraid I can't believe this commentator at all, because it's committing No True Scotsman fallacies left and right about non-Abrahamic religions being "not a real religion" and conflating decentralized, non-textual religions with "demon-worship."

The underlying book that inspired the post [1] does look like a much more interesting connection between the Enlightenment and deist interpretations, but Buddhism with all its warts have existed in various forms for thousands of years. At best you can say that Buddhism has been dramatically impacted by interactions with Enlightenment philosophy, but its roots definitely stretch back further than the 1800's.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058C6FGS/?tag=meaningness...

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#26

Post by guard-of-terra »

Alex3917 wrote: post #13
guard-of-terra wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can imagine things like what you describe (regarding Cherokee Nation) and I won't find that especially odd. But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently, making their case incomparable to that of Cherokee. Your parable is shaky. You seem to think that Dalai Lama issue is either solely about annoying China, or solely about self-presentation. It is not. People are…

> People are genuinely interested in Buddhism because it looks elegant and less stained than other major religions. Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years and designed to appeal to those with scientific mindset. I'm not saying that's bad, but it's a little propagandistic not to acknowledge it.

Contrary to many people I agree with you. The influence is hard to ignore.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#27

Post by powera »

awl130 wrote: post #8

Western meddling in Sino-Tibetan affairs by the US government is understandable and is just international politics. But meddling by so-called 'anti-establishment' celebrities is the height of irony. The equivalent of Russell Brandt yelling "Free Tibet" at Glastonbury would be Al Wei Wei (famous Chinese social activist / artist) holding a concert in Shenzhen with proceeds going to some Singapore-based non-profit calle…

You do realize that Ai Wei Wei actually had a significant exhibit on Alcatraz, where there were significant Native American protests, right?

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/why-ai-weiwei-bre...

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#28

Post by Alex3917 »

jmagoon wrote: post #24
Alex3917 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, iirc the religion was constructed pretty much wholesale during the opium wars to convince people that the Chinese were an intelligent people with a rich cultural history who we shouldn't be genociding. There are a bunch of books about it, this blog post gives an overview of the situation and links to a bunch of the books: https://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/a-new-world-rel... I haven't really spent any t…

I can't tell if you are talking about actual Buddhism or "Western Buddhism". As in, are you dramatically misinterpreting your source document, or are you trying to say that the "Western Buddhism" we experience is not "Real Buddhism"? from the article: "There was a problem. Buddhism, as actually found in Asia, was much more like the European idea of “paganism” than a “great world religion.”" The site relates to curren…

> I can't tell if you are talking about actual Buddhism or "Western Buddhism".

This article doesn't have anything to do with Western Buddhism. It's about how what people currently believe/practice as Buddhism in Asia comes from the west.

The point is that before 150 years ago there was no core set of ideas that could really be distilled into what we think of as Buddhism today. Rather there were just different peoples worshipping different local gods. Westerners then went to Asia and translated a smattering of ancient texts and then went around and told the local people that they were practicing their religion wrong, and what they should actually do/believe instead is X, Y, Z. That's what modern buddhism is, and then Western Buddhism is an offshoot of that which was designed to appeal to Americans as a practice. (As opposed to being designed to appeal to westerners as a reason not to genocide various Asian populations.)

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#29

Post by Silfen »

Alex3917 wrote: post #13
guard-of-terra wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can imagine things like what you describe (regarding Cherokee Nation) and I won't find that especially odd. But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently, making their case incomparable to that of Cherokee. Your parable is shaky. You seem to think that Dalai Lama issue is either solely about annoying China, or solely about self-presentation. It is not. People are…

> People are genuinely interested in Buddhism because it looks elegant and less stained than other major religions. Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years and designed to appeal to those with scientific mindset. I'm not saying that's bad, but it's a little propagandistic not to acknowledge it.

I think this is fairly revisionist. This narrative undersells the influence that Buddhist thought had on enlightenment philosophers[0].

IANAHistorian, and am likely well out of my depth here, but I'd venture a guess that the influence worked in both directions, due to overlap in philosophical positions. For example, from the Dalai Lama:

Both Buddhism and science prefer to account for the evolution and emergence of the cosmos and life in terms of the complex interrelations of the natural laws of cause and effect. From the methodological perspective, both traditions emphasize the role of empiricism. For example, in the Buddhist investigative tradition, between the three recognized sources of knowledge - experience, reason and testimony - it is the evidence of the experience that takes precedence, with reason coming second and testimony last.[1]

[0]http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/how-davi... [1]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/buddhism/science-at-the-cr...

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