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Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

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Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#21

Post by acqq »

dogma1138 wrote: post #19
acqq wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's possible to compare the total number of the victims of the terrorist attacks of non-religious terrorists and Islamic terrorists, and also the number of civilian victims in war operations of one and another. I have the impression that the numbers differ in many, many magnitudes against the religious ones and that wouldn't support the relativism presented. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we miss the proper word,…

Depends if you count in Saddam as a terrorist because then he trumps them all combine as far as death count goes.

Do we count the state actions against the rebels inside of their territory or the wars on their borders as terrorist attacks? I think some other name is typically given to those.

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#22

Post by mc32 »

bsaul wrote: post #20

I really wonder if this guy has ever been living outside the US ( either in a muslim country, or in a few european countries) to make so many wrong assertions about the root cause of the whole affair. Actually i'm even surprised he's working in any field related to logic, because his whole evaluation of french attacks having anything to do with what french do or did falls on the ground as soon as you notice that they…

He seems to be partial to the term blood-thirsty...

This interview with a former recruiter and who now disavows the whole movement is quite interesting and illuminating: http://www.npr.org/2013/10/25/195238189/how-does-an-islamist...

His time spent in an Egyptian jail in the company of other Islamists changed his mind about the ideology and its aims.

Goes into detail here too: http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&i...

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#23

Post by dogma1138 »

acqq wrote: post #21
dogma1138 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends if you count in Saddam as a terrorist because then he trumps them all combine as far as death count goes.

Do we count the state actions against the rebels inside of their territory or the wars on their borders as terrorist attacks? I think some other name is typically given to those.

Again impossible to define, either no true scotsman or an arbitrary cut off. Hezbollah, Hamas, the Taliban and many other while being "terrorist" organizations are also very much state like, with their own political, social, and economical infrastructure. About 2M Lebanese live under Hezbollah's rule in Lebanon, they get more services from Hezbollah than from the Lebanese government. Hamas is the de-facto and de-jure (even tho they didn't had elections in 10 years) government of Gaza, and the Taliban was the government of Afghanistan for nearly 30 years. And should we only count Islamic terrorism as religious? Because the Christian militia's in Lebanon killed 100,000's, and on the other hand socialist/communist groups in Asia and Latin America have probably claimed easily over a million by now.

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#24

Post by azth »

ch wrote: post #5
joesmo wrote: post #3

The author is implying that Daesh or something like it would/could exist without religion and specifically without Islam. I doubt that. Also, just because there is Muslim on Muslim violence doesn't mean that Islam isn't the cause of it. Wars between different factions of the same religion are the rule, not the exception. So ignoring religion as a cause of these problems while touting climate change is both silly and…

It's more like he is implying that something like Da'esh will exist no matter if Islam exists or not. Their brand of violence is not rooted in ideological beliefs but rather psycopathic killing for killings sake. That Islam allows a way for them to recruit does not mean they are Islamic only opportunistic. The other issues of famine, fear and a power vaccume are more likely the reason they can last for so long. Group…

> That Islam allows a way for them to recruit does not mean they are Islamic only opportunistic.

Very true. Incidentally (and ironically), Islamically one is not allowed to overthrow their (Muslim) government to "establish a caliphate". So what ISIS is doing is against the teachings of Islam to start with. They take texts, keep what they like and leave out what they don't like, and use those texts for their own purpose.

We have in Islamic literature, several authentic narrations that talk about, and warn of people who have a similar ideology to that of ISIS.

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#25

Post by joesmo »

ch wrote: post #5
joesmo wrote: post #3

The author is implying that Daesh or something like it would/could exist without religion and specifically without Islam. I doubt that. Also, just because there is Muslim on Muslim violence doesn't mean that Islam isn't the cause of it. Wars between different factions of the same religion are the rule, not the exception. So ignoring religion as a cause of these problems while touting climate change is both silly and…

It's more like he is implying that something like Da'esh will exist no matter if Islam exists or not. Their brand of violence is not rooted in ideological beliefs but rather psycopathic killing for killings sake. That Islam allows a way for them to recruit does not mean they are Islamic only opportunistic. The other issues of famine, fear and a power vaccume are more likely the reason they can last for so long. Group…

"That Islam allows a way for them to recruit does not mean they are Islamic only opportunistic."

Lol. They are by definition Islamic. You can't just change the meaning of words like "Islamic" because it suits your point of view. Da'esh is as Islamic as any other Islamic group.

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#26

Post by rdancer »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #16
gayprogrammer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigrants from Mexico don't follow a religion that instructs them to kill.

Read the Old Testament lately?

If you're not a Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, or Jebusite, you should be safe.

That's not a snark, by the way. Contrary to popular myth, the Bible doesn't prescribe warfare on any extant nation, group of people, or region.

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#27

Post by rdancer »

azth wrote: post #24
ch wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like he is implying that something like Da'esh will exist no matter if Islam exists or not. Their brand of violence is not rooted in ideological beliefs but rather psycopathic killing for killings sake. That Islam allows a way for them to recruit does not mean they are Islamic only opportunistic. The other issues of famine, fear and a power vaccume are more likely the reason they can last for so long. Group…

> That Islam allows a way for them to recruit does not mean they are Islamic only opportunistic. Very true. Incidentally (and ironically), Islamically one is not allowed to overthrow their (Muslim) government to "establish a caliphate". So what ISIS is doing is against the teachings of Islam to start with. They take texts, keep what they like and leave out what they don't like, and use those texts for their own purpo…

They just declare the rulers apostate, and poof, no government. Same trick the medieval European rulers would use to get rid of their rivals, by the way (they had to convince the Pope).

If their daily practice agrees with the Scriptures, and by all accounts, they are very uncompromising, it is very hard to argue that they're somehow not legitimate.

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#28

Post by Camillo »

The notion that mass immigration from Syria to Europe is a necessary consequence of the war is trivially falsified by looking at the timeline. The Syrian civil war started in early 2011. Daesh entered the war in early 2012 as al-Nusra Front, and operated as ISIL since 2013. The Caliphate was proclaimed in summer 2014.

But mass migration into Europe did not start until summer 2015. Obviously it did not take the Syrians four years to realize that there was a war in their country.

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#29

Post by azth »

rdancer wrote: post #27
azth wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That Islam allows a way for them to recruit does not mean they are Islamic only opportunistic. Very true. Incidentally (and ironically), Islamically one is not allowed to overthrow their (Muslim) government to "establish a caliphate". So what ISIS is doing is against the teachings of Islam to start with. They take texts, keep what they like and leave out what they don't like, and use those texts for their own purpo…

They just declare the rulers apostate , and poof, no government. Same trick the medieval European rulers would use to get rid of their rivals, by the way (they had to convince the Pope). If their daily practice agrees with the Scriptures, and by all accounts, they are very uncompromising, it is very hard to argue that they're somehow not legitimate.

> They just declare the rulers apostate, and poof, no government.

Islamically, this does not hold either (and we have authentic narrations to back this up). In order to declare the leader an apostate (a very serious accusation by the way), there has to be extremely clear evidence upon which there is zero room for interpretation or excusing. I'm talking about something along the lines of the ruler outright coming out in front of everyone and saying that he is no longer Muslim.

This applies to everyone, from Mobarak to Qadhafi to Saddam, etc. There were terrible things that happened under their regimes, and I am not defending them. However, absolutely no one can come out and declare them apostates without crystal clear proof upon which no two would disagree -- this has never happened.

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#30

Post by ckozlowski »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #8
phamilton wrote: post #4

A serious question which I'd love to hear opinions on: Why are immigrants to the US from Mexico viewed so differently from immigrants in Europe? Or are they treated the same?

I guess it depends on who you ask. Some of us are afraid that they'll rename Los Angeles to something Hispanic-sounding.

I see what you did there. =)
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