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TPP banning requirements to transfer or access to source code of software

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Re: TPP banning requirements to transfer or access to source code of software

#21

Post by mcv »

dak1 wrote: post #4

These are rules for States. It has no bearing whatsoever on the GPL. This prevents a country from forcing somebody like Microsoft or Apple to give up their source code for "inspection" in order to access their market. It also helps to prevent States from demanding and acquiring encryption or other private keys (there's a separate section that also explicitly forbids mandating backdoors be added). Not everything in th…

I think it primarily bans states from using access to the source code to prevent vendor lock-in. States tend to invest in enormous software projects. If they need specific new features, and the original vendor is unable or unwilling to provide those for a reasonable price, this would prevent the state from going to someone else to continue development. The original vendor will be able to ask unreasonable prices.

When Peru made a law demanding that the state has access to the source code for that exact purpose, Microsoft was upset, because they didn't want to play by those rules, but also doesn't want to lose that market.

Re: TPP banning requirements to transfer or access to source code of software

#22

Post by chronial »

saurik wrote: post #7

The "parties" of a treaty are governments. This has nothing to do with GPL. This is saying that a government can't say "you aren't allowed to sell software in the country of Frain as a non-Frainian unless you provide the source code for that product (whether to the end user or to the government)". They leave an exception for "critical infrastructure", because it was hard to argue that the government of Frain shouldn'…

I can't see how this about capitalism. Showing source code to anybody (government or end user) does not make you loose your rights to that source code or the compiled application.

This is about freedom and the right to self-determination of governments/citizens (and thus also about democracy).

I would like to point out that our patent system is basically something like this: We as a society will protect your intellectual property rights for your machine only if you show us your blueprints.

Re: TPP banning requirements to transfer or access to source code of software

#24

Post by kbutler »

dak1 wrote: post #4

These are rules for States. It has no bearing whatsoever on the GPL. This prevents a country from forcing somebody like Microsoft or Apple to give up their source code for "inspection" in order to access their market. It also helps to prevent States from demanding and acquiring encryption or other private keys (there's a separate section that also explicitly forbids mandating backdoors be added). Not everything in th…

There are trade-offs in this. It means states cannot require code for certification, inspection, and continued development in case of abandonment. But it also means that states cannot require code for copying and illicit use.

I prefer the more open options.

Re: TPP banning requirements to transfer or access to source code of software

#25

Post by Xixi »

forgotpwtomain wrote: post #3

So in short, if I understand this correctly, the US government (and any other government party to the treaty) will for example be unable to insist that Volkswagen (or any other manufacturer) open source their future emissions control software (as a condition for regulatory compliance) ?

Assuming it falls into the category of mass-market software/product, it would indeed be forbidden as a precondition to sell VW cars.

But if, for instance, VW cars were measured to have too high emissions, I see nothing in this article that would prevent justice from demanding access to the source code to audit it.

Alas I would absolutely prefer states to mandate this sort of source code to be open-sourced, but I think that makes me stand firmly in the minority.

Re: TPP banning requirements to transfer or access to source code of software

#26

Post by Xixi »

wheaties wrote: post #5

Would this prevent us from requiring VW make available it's source code? Not a lawyer.

Germany is not part of the TPP, but assuming it were:

- probably not as a blanket precondition to allow them to sell cars,

- probably yes during the course of a trial if their cars were measured to have too strong emissions.

Not a lawyer either.

Re: TPP banning requirements to transfer or access to source code of software

#27

Post by michaelt »

crdoconnor wrote: post #14
dak1 wrote: post #4

These are rules for States. It has no bearing whatsoever on the GPL. This prevents a country from forcing somebody like Microsoft or Apple to give up their source code for "inspection" in order to access their market. It also helps to prevent States from demanding and acquiring encryption or other private keys (there's a separate section that also explicitly forbids mandating backdoors be added). Not everything in th…

>This prevents a country from forcing somebody like Microsoft or Apple to give up their source code for "inspection" in order to access their market. Since when is that a good thing?

America hopes to use TPP as a model for a similar deal with China, so America has insisted on a bunch of rules you'd only expect in a trade deal with a banana republic - like investor-state dispute settlement.

At present, "Chinese officials have learned to tackle multinational companies, often forcing them to form joint ventures with [Chinese companies] and transfer the latest technology in exchange for current and future business opportunities" [1] which is good for China but bad for America. America wants a treaty with China that will stop them doing that.

Personally I'd be surprised if China went for such a deal, regardless of what happens with TPP.

[1] https://hbr.org/2010/12/china-vs-the-world-whose-technology-...

Re: TPP banning requirements to transfer or access to source code of software

#28

Post by stingraycharles »

xg15 wrote: post #15
dak1 wrote: post #4

These are rules for States. It has no bearing whatsoever on the GPL. This prevents a country from forcing somebody like Microsoft or Apple to give up their source code for "inspection" in order to access their market. It also helps to prevent States from demanding and acquiring encryption or other private keys (there's a separate section that also explicitly forbids mandating backdoors be added). Not everything in th…

It also would prevent government agencies from demanding i.e. the source code of a car's ECU to verify its safety and emissions behavior. The only way out of this would be to declare car ECUs (or other systems) as "critical infrastructure", the definition of which I'm sure will be subject to many political tug-of-wars once this is implemented.

Playing the devil's advocate here, but you shouldn't need access to a car's source code to measure its emissions. The test is broken, not the software.

Re: TPP banning requirements to transfer or access to source code of software

#29

Post by dataker »

chronial wrote: post #22
saurik wrote: post #7

The "parties" of a treaty are governments. This has nothing to do with GPL. This is saying that a government can't say "you aren't allowed to sell software in the country of Frain as a non-Frainian unless you provide the source code for that product (whether to the end user or to the government)". They leave an exception for "critical infrastructure", because it was hard to argue that the government of Frain shouldn'…

I can't see how this about capitalism. Showing source code to anybody (government or end user) does not make you loose your rights to that source code or the compiled application. This is about freedom and the right to self-determination of governments/citizens (and thus also about democracy). I would like to point out that our patent system is basically something like this: We as a society will protect your intellec…

>Showing source code to anybody (government or end user) does not make you loose your rights to that source code or the compiled application.

You lose control over your own property. That's enough. Similar to police officers entering your home without a warrant.

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