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E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

nytimes.com

21–30 of 160 posts

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much as I'd like to see it happen, bankrupting a multi-billion dollar company isn't something that regulators do on a lark.

If X person(s) modified their X car(s) in such a way, they'd be forced to take it/them off the road. The value of X should not matter.

I think it does matter.

Think of every VW, Audi, and Porsche dealership and manufacturing plant in the US being mothballed overnight. Not even mentioning the secondary effects, that's a lot of unemployed Americans that are paying for mistakes made by people they've never met.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#22
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The harm is against society as a whole, not really against the owners.

How do we go about measuring this "harm"?

I'm not sure. You could make several arguments. I think the idea that environmental regulations are reasonable presupposes that harm to society comes from environmental damage (negative externalities of other behaviors).

A few such arguments might be that there were harms to:

- peoples' lungs, wildlife, etc.

- profits lost by firms that played by the rules

- more cars sold than would have been (hence more environmental damage caused than with fewer overall cars on the road).

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#23
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The harm is against society as a whole, not really against the owners.

How do we go about measuring this "harm"?

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/29/vw-emissi...

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#25
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we go about measuring this "harm"?

I'm not sure. You could make several arguments. I think the idea that environmental regulations are reasonable presupposes that harm to society comes from environmental damage (negative externalities of other behaviors). A few such arguments might be that there were harms to: - peoples' lungs, wildlife, etc. - profits lost by firms that played by the rules - more cars sold than would have been (hence more environment…

Good points. I sort of touched on this in another comment, but perhaps the emission standard on these vehicles is what's unreasonable.

We have a more-or-less arbitrarily set maximum allowed tailpipe emissions for a given class of vehicles. Is it fair to apply this arbitrary standard uniformly across all vehicles in the same class?

If vehicle A and vehicle B both meet the same emissions standards, but vehicle B is capable of better fuel economy, isn't it reasonable to suspect vehicle B's net pollution is less over the vehicle's lifetime?

In that light, perhaps these standards are unfair to the companies who are trying to make this class of vehicle. In the case of VW, the vehicles will have to lose fuel economy in order to adhere to this standard, which means more fuel is being consumed over the vehicle's lifetime, which may very well equate to a net gain of pollution (not just for the vehicle's tailpipe, but also the entire system from the oil well through the pump).

None of this excuses blatant falsification of tests - however, perhaps it's time we took a better look at what exactly pollution is, and how tweaking our vehicles may impact the output.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#26
post #14

the release itself: http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/bd4379a92ceceeac852... As alleged in the NOV, VW manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module of these vehicles that senses when the vehicle is being tested for compliance with EPA emissions standards. When the vehicle senses that it is undergoing a federal emissions test procedure, it operates in a low NOx “temperature conditioning”…

There was a good This American Life episode recently [1] that walked through a few different alternatives for how VW could respond to this whole scandal. The host solicited feedback from 3 different marketing firms:

One firm, run by the guy who saved Jack In The Box with the ubiquitous sphere-head Jack commercials after an E. Coli outbreak killed 4 kids, said that VW should run an ad of a new executive blowing up the boardroom to symbolize changing the old guard.

Another firm suggested they crowdsource answers to how they can fix the problem/make it up to the public.

The last firm said they should just shut up and not draw attention to themselves. They're not in a good position to say anything right now, and they should just let the collective public forget about it and move onto the next scandal.

I'm assuming the third options is what VW's retainer-ed marketing firm has opted for.

[1] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/569/p...

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#27
post #7

Clearly it's the fault of those pesky engineers again, how else could you explain the same type of cheating across multiple divisions of the company. They only other explanation would involve Management, and obviously that's not it. Though the fact that none of the other manufacturers spoke up about the violation of emissions standards when when they must have done their own tests to see how VW managed to get emissio…

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

While I'm certainly not making excuses for VW cheating, I think that maybe the EPA needs to revisit its diesel emission standards. The EPA standard is the strictest in the world, and they have successfully ruined many diesel powered devices. Examples:

1) I was recently looking at compact tractors. To meet the standards, new tractors are fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters. Even if they don't flat-out fail (which happens too often, and costs thousands of dollars to fix), these filters require "regeneration", which is code for "a light comes on on the dashboard, your tractor stops moving, and runs wide-open throttle for 20 minutes while you stare in bewilderment". Google Kubota B3350 Regeneration if you want lots of fun horror stories.

2) Diesel commercial trucks. My uncle drives a large cube van over the road. When his truck goes into regen mode, it doesn't require wide-open throttle like a compact tractor, but it does lose power and tops out at 40-50MPH. If you are on a freeway where the flow of traffice is at 80MPH, this is dangerous and a major problem.

3) Diesel pickup trucks: Many trucks, in an effort to avoid additional hardware above and beyond the DPF, have taken to injecting fuel during the exhaust stroke. The idea is to have the unburned fuel get pumped through the engine and on to the DPF, where it burns and increases the temperature to the point that the carbon burns out of the DPF. Problem is, when you inject fuel into an engine during the exhaust stroke, it dilutes the oil in the cylinder, reduces lubrication, and causes premature wear/engine failure.

In the two cases I am familiar with, diesel motorhomes and diesel compact tractors, the value of used vehicles has increased quite a bit in response to the fact that all of the new ones suck. My Dad owns a gravel pit, and he (along with everyone else in the industry) buys and re-builds existing vehicles from the frame-up to avoid having to purchase new products, which are unreliable, sometimes dangerous, and uneconomical to maintain. Google "glider truck kits" -- it's basically the idea of purchasing all the parts of a new vehicle (except the powertrain), and then manually taking the powertrain from a worn-out truck, re-building it, and installing it into the glider kit. This is often done at an expense that is similar to that of purchasing an entirely new vehicle.

Many equally horrible solutions to this problem are employed. Some designs incorporate a fuel burner directly into the exhaust design. Others require a separate tank of catalytic fluid that must be filled regularly. One thing that all of the designs have in common is poor performance and piss-poor fuel economy. Many vehicles from multiple manufacturers have had trouble with catching on fire due to emissions control systems.

If the EPA wants to make tough rules that will force manufacturers to produce products with the best available technology and encourage development of new technologies, that's one thing. When the EPA makes rules that result in dangerous and/or non-functional product designs, I think it's time to back off just a bit until the technology has come closer to being able to reasonably achieve the regulated cleanliness levels. It's completely insane to make a truck that will force you to slow to 40mph while you're driving it, or to make a tractor that will force a farmer to take an unplanned break in the middle of the day (remember -- farmers work all day long, and daylight is a limited, precious commodity to them).

EDIT: To be completely clear, if you are doing work with the tractor that can be done at full RPM, you don't necessarily need to park it. However, if you're doing something that requires lower RPM (using a PTO attachment that needs low RPM like a post-hole digger, or a spreader, etc ... or doing low-speed work on a tractor with a geared transmission), then it's time to go get some coffee. Personally, the two major things I want to do with a tractor are run a large snowblower and maintain our horse pasture. For the horse pasture it's not a big deal, but if I need to clear the driveway before leaving for work in the morning, an unplanned 20 minute wait is completely unacceptable.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#28
Since Porsche do not use small diesels in their cars this looks to me like the scandal is a lot bigger than first thought. It isn't just the team working on the 1.8 litre diesel engine that fiddled the software, there is something more endemic going on as the 3 litre upwards size engines are implicated.

The funny thing is this:

Porsche could sue over £25 a day congestion charge (2008)

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2008/feb/19/travelandtra...

> The mayor's office responded saying the threatened legal action was "a double attack on Londoners".

> "First Porsche are trying to deprive Londoners of their democratic right to decide in the mayoral election on 1 May whether they want gas guzzling and polluting cars to drive in London when there is absolutely no need for them to do so. Second they are trying to impose on all Londoners unnecessary levels of pollution and greenhouse gases by a tiny minority," said a spokesman for the mayor.

> "No one is allowed to throw their rubbish in the street and Porsche should not be allowed to impose gas guzzling polluting cars on Londoners who do not want them."

I hope Porsche get taken to the cleaners.

Schadenfreude?

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#30
post #24

Meanwhile there seems to be no enforcement of large diesel pickups "rolling coal" with modified emissions.

Wut? What does this have to do with vehicle manufacturers programming their ECUs to defeat emissions tests? There isn't a single diesel truck that 'rolls coal' from the factory.

Also, diesel trucks that emit black smoke do fail emissions test - in counties that actually have emissions tests.

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