The West Is Choked by Fear • Hacker News Board

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#21

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 2:55 PM UTC

lucifer wrote: post #15

rbanffy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about." It's exactly what this is about. As an almost Atheist (lacking the needed faith to really be one) I find the Quram mildly disturbing (as I do with other sacred texts, the Bible included) in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning. I respect, however, your right to your faith. You may believe in whatever you like, and I will defend you…

"I find the [it] mildly disturbing [...] in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning." I have a suggestion for you: Head over to Germany and question the "absolute truth" of holocaust: numbers, methods, facts, etc. Lets see how long your "freedom of speech" is respected. (Will post your arrest and incarceration news here on HN!)

Germany violates the human right to free speech. So do Cuba, Zimbabwe, China and Canada (not an exclusive list). What's your point?

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#22

Post by philk » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 2:56 PM UTC

lucifer wrote: post #15

rbanffy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about." It's exactly what this is about. As an almost Atheist (lacking the needed faith to really be one) I find the Quram mildly disturbing (as I do with other sacred texts, the Bible included) in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning. I respect, however, your right to your faith. You may believe in whatever you like, and I will defend you…

"I find the [it] mildly disturbing [...] in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning." I have a suggestion for you: Head over to Germany and question the "absolute truth" of holocaust: numbers, methods, facts, etc. Lets see how long your "freedom of speech" is respected. (Will post your arrest and incarceration news here on HN!)

I'm not trying to be nasty here but really equating denial of the holocaust (an event that actually happened and we have extensive proof and documentation of) with religious beliefs (which have no evidence and need to be taken on faith) is somewhat offensive.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#23

Post by viggity » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 2:58 PM UTC

tfh wrote: post #12

HN is not the right place for such a debate.

I think a lot of hackers are interested in free speech issues. Myself included

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#24

Post by mtinkerhess » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 2:59 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #14

theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

Stop modding theotherside down. This discussion is important.

Agreed. Comments should be voted according to how much they add to the discussion, not by whether you agree with the author's opinion.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#25

Post by philk » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 3:00 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #14

theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

Stop modding theotherside down. This discussion is important.

Sorry, but no. Freedom of speech is a really important thing and someone who says "Fuck freedom of speech" is not someone I can reasonably agree with.

Also, the fact that he's created a new account just to post this discredits his arguments further. "I disagree with this article but not enough to lose a couple of points of karma".

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#26

Post by jimbokun » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 3:02 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #6

theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

"Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about." It's exactly what this is about. As an almost Atheist (lacking the needed faith to really be one) I find the Quram mildly disturbing (as I do with other sacred texts, the Bible included) in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning. I respect, however, your right to your faith. You may believe in whatever you like, and I will defend you…

"Would I be offended if they were about Christ"

That is not the point.

Even if you were supremely offended, you still do not have the right to kill the person who offended you. You can draw attention to the offenders insensitivity, decry their judgement, and comprehensively denounce what was said as vile, uncivilized, and hateful. You can even call for people to boycott the publisher or for the dismissal of the person responsible for the offense.

But you still are not justified to respond with violence.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#27

Post by bad_user » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 3:04 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #17

mseebach wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. Yes it is. And yes I have. At least I have a right to do so without fearing for my life. What I don't have, is a right to have any friends when I'm done expressing myself. > If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filthy whore,…

[deleted]

> * No, you don't, as slander is illegal*

Slander is only illegal when the statements are said to be true (and can be proven that they are false) ... humor and satire newspapers and magazines can publish whatever they want ... both in the US and the EU.

> The point is, as you conceded, that everyone would agree I was stupid and had it coming.

No, there's no justification for violence. Ever.

If you're a rambling idiot that can't hold it together ... people will punish you anyway by ignoring you. You can lose your friends, your wife, even your job. And this form of social punishment is more just for the kind of situation you're referring to ... especially since it all goes away when you learn to behave well in society.

> Stop making me responsible for the actions and opinions of people I don't know or have anything to do with.

And yet, you're identifying yourself as a Muslim, and defend those that issued death threats, fucking freedom of speech to the detriment of those that fought for it and society as a whole.

Of course you are responsible.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#28

Post by ErrantX » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 3:05 PM UTC

theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

Uh, btw. Can I just remind people that the FAQ deliberately talks about avoiding common flame topics (such as religion)

Just to be aware; don't get too "involved" :)

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#29

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 3:06 PM UTC

akamaka wrote: post #16

I've heard the reasoning in this article before, and it's deeply flawed. It's true that we in the West have the right to offend, but being a troll doesn't make you a righteous defender of freedom. . Those cartoons weren't some type of brilliant artwork, they were simple trolling. While I'll stand up for someone's right to be a troll, they certainly shouldn't expect my support and respect. Instead, that is reserved fo…

[deleted]

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#30

Post by aerique » Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 3:06 PM UTC

akamaka wrote: post #16

I've heard the reasoning in this article before, and it's deeply flawed. It's true that we in the West have the right to offend, but being a troll doesn't make you a righteous defender of freedom. . Those cartoons weren't some type of brilliant artwork, they were simple trolling. While I'll stand up for someone's right to be a troll, they certainly shouldn't expect my support and respect. Instead, that is reserved fo…

Trolling is a good detector for the maturity of your victims. Sensible people ignore it or are amused. Others respond seriously or go mental.

Trick question: am I a troll or not?