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UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

independent.co.uk

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Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#21

Post by scrollaway »

Asbostos wrote: post #12
XJOKOLAT wrote: post #11

In the title, change "UK" to "Chinese State" and you might not bat an eyelid. The democracy we have is a Frankenstein version of the democracy many think we have. And in the same way you would hesitate at calling Frankenstein human, I would hesitate at calling what we have a democracy. I'll still have it over the alternatives but what a mediocre state we've ended up in. Needs to be fixed.

It's still democracy and it still protects against extreme runaway government power. Ultimately the issue is that people want this. People are scared of terrorists. People do want the government to bend the rules to track them down. That's exactly what democracy is supposed to be. What it's not supposed to be is what everyone wants, fair, right or ensuring people's information is kept secret from the government. In s…

People are scared of what they're told is scary. You and I aren't scared of being bitten by a black widow while we sleep because we know the chances are remote (or in my case, nonexistant given where I live), and it's not really something we think about.

The media constantly harassing the population with the big bad scary terrorist who's out to get you, of course people watching said media are going to be scared of that, even if the chances are remote.

People "want" this because they are scared of a primarily fabricated threat. What people really want is for the "threat" to go away, but that's as simple as having better media that doesn't distort truth for financial gains.

Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#22

Post by jakeogh »

Asbostos wrote: post #12
XJOKOLAT wrote: post #11

In the title, change "UK" to "Chinese State" and you might not bat an eyelid. The democracy we have is a Frankenstein version of the democracy many think we have. And in the same way you would hesitate at calling Frankenstein human, I would hesitate at calling what we have a democracy. I'll still have it over the alternatives but what a mediocre state we've ended up in. Needs to be fixed.

It's still democracy and it still protects against extreme runaway government power. Ultimately the issue is that people want this. People are scared of terrorists. People do want the government to bend the rules to track them down. That's exactly what democracy is supposed to be. What it's not supposed to be is what everyone wants, fair, right or ensuring people's information is kept secret from the government. In s…

"protects against extreme runaway government power"

How? Does the UK majority believe they are not entitled to protect their lives and liberty with effective tools?

Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#23

Post by junto »

petewailes wrote: post #14
junto wrote: post #6

Short term gain for long term pain from the security services here. Journalists and researchers into Islamic groups like IS, should be left in peace to carry out research into how these militant groups operate and function. The security services have struggled to make inroads on these groups. Unable to place effective spies and get Intel, especially on home grown cells. Journalists therefore provide a double function…

I'm fairly certain you don't actually know anything like enough people who work for any of the security services in the UK to make this an informed opinion. Because you couldn't be more wrong. A populist viewpoint with no basis whatsoever in reality. Not surprising, but disappointing. For the avoidance of doubt, no, I don't support what's happened here. It's ill-judged (no pun intended) to say the least.

First hand actually, although granted, the culture might have magically changed over the last 15 years.

Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#24

Post by steckerbrett »

wfunction wrote: post #20
steckerbrett wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are scared of terrorists. Are they? If they are it's irrational, you're far more likely to be killed by a falling fridge or alcohol induced liver damage. Attacking a bogyman in an attempt to take eyes off what your government is really doing is quite sickening. Everyone would be significantly better off if we stopped parading around with 'defense' funding and put it to something with a perceivable impact lik…

> you're far more likely to be killed by alcohol induced liver damage Try telling that to someone who doesn't drink.

As a population, not you specifically.

Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#25

Post by gaius »

lucaspiller wrote: post #10

The BBC article has some more on this [0]: > "It did not resist Thames Valley's application for an order under the Terrorism Act in court because the act does not afford grounds under which it could be opposed. > "It is troubling that this legislation does not provide the opportunity for the media to mount a freedom of speech defence." [0] http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34666281

Was it freedom of speech when the BBC informed the Argentines that their bomb fuses were wrongly set to attack British ships, or when they warned them of the impending attack on Goose Green?

I get what you're saying but the BBC plays both sides of this argument.

Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#26

Post by steckerbrett »

collyw wrote: post #18
steckerbrett wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are scared of terrorists. Are they? If they are it's irrational, you're far more likely to be killed by a falling fridge or alcohol induced liver damage. Attacking a bogyman in an attempt to take eyes off what your government is really doing is quite sickening. Everyone would be significantly better off if we stopped parading around with 'defense' funding and put it to something with a perceivable impact lik…

Sadly the Guardian did a study on it recently, and the UK public's number one fear was of a terrorist attack. The propoganda is working.

Yes, undoubtedly. I often wonder how much of commentary on social media sites is shills.

Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#27

Post by wisty »

scrollaway wrote: post #16
petewailes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain you don't actually know anything like enough people who work for any of the security services in the UK to make this an informed opinion. Because you couldn't be more wrong. A populist viewpoint with no basis whatsoever in reality. Not surprising, but disappointing. For the avoidance of doubt, no, I don't support what's happened here. It's ill-judged (no pun intended) to say the least.

> A populist viewpoint with no basis whatsoever in reality. What you just said serves no purpose. Can you please provide sources and alternative viewpoints people can actually discuss, rather than belittle someone for commenting on a story?

I think it's wrong to just categorise law enforcement as a bunch of racists. Especially in the UK (cough Rotherham).

It's also a bit strange to hear someone accusing the police of all being black and white thinkers, who like putting everyone in little boxes, enjoy using their power, and being extremely insular. You could say the same about the kind of progressives who think all police are racists.

There probably is an element of truth, in that law enforcement does have black and white thinking. If someone is a suspect, they can act like it's their job to haul them in at all costs, unless breaking the rules would hurt the case. Yes, it's an adversarial legal system, but sometimes the police and prosecution can seem to lack discretion.

Also, the amount of funding they have to clamp down on terrorism is quite disproportionate. There's a lot of police tracking down a tiny number of needles in a haystack, so anyone who looks remotely like a terrorist risks being treated as a suspect.

Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#28

Post by clort »

steckerbrett wrote: post #24
wfunction wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're far more likely to be killed by alcohol induced liver damage Try telling that to someone who doesn't drink.

As a population, not you specifically.

but it illustrates the problem beautifully.

The thinking goes, its ok for the government to snoop on the everybody in the name of catching terrorists.. because I am not a terrorist and they won't snoop on me.

Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#29

Post by petewailes »

scrollaway wrote: post #16
petewailes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain you don't actually know anything like enough people who work for any of the security services in the UK to make this an informed opinion. Because you couldn't be more wrong. A populist viewpoint with no basis whatsoever in reality. Not surprising, but disappointing. For the avoidance of doubt, no, I don't support what's happened here. It's ill-judged (no pun intended) to say the least.

> A populist viewpoint with no basis whatsoever in reality. What you just said serves no purpose. Can you please provide sources and alternative viewpoints people can actually discuss, rather than belittle someone for commenting on a story?

Happily.

http://www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/spy-career-s...

http://www.varsity.co.uk/news/3180

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/forget-bon...

For starters. They're not normal people, in that they're recruited by elitist institutions from other elitist institutions. Not dissimilar to how branches of our industry work, although the profile for who they want is somewhat different. But for the most part, in terms of personality, they're fairly normal people.

There aren't any mustachioed villains sitting around wondering how best to abuse their powers. Yes, there's some who enjoy wielding the power they have, but the same is true in business, and doctors like performing surgery.

Mischaracterising people like this does no service to the reader, no better than people who take controversial political figures and characture and demonise them. In the end, it just makes for a lower level of discourse and a worldview lacking in nuance. Ironically, what the poster was complaining about.

Re: UK police use terror powers to seize BBC Newsnight journalist's laptop

#30

Post by madaxe_again »

wfunction wrote: post #20
steckerbrett wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are scared of terrorists. Are they? If they are it's irrational, you're far more likely to be killed by a falling fridge or alcohol induced liver damage. Attacking a bogyman in an attempt to take eyes off what your government is really doing is quite sickening. Everyone would be significantly better off if we stopped parading around with 'defense' funding and put it to something with a perceivable impact lik…

> you're far more likely to be killed by alcohol induced liver damage Try telling that to someone who doesn't drink.

That's probably still more likely than being in a terror attack.
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