On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team • Hacker News Board

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#21

Post by LesZedCB » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:22 PM UTC

frandroid wrote: post #15

new_corp_dev wrote: post #6

She says she was encouraged to apply and speak at conferences, and that management would campaign for the whole team to attend any conferences where she is accepted to speak. > This may seem like special treatment or in some ways unfair. "Reverse sexism" some might call it. I don't see it that way. This industry treats women differently, so my managers treat me differently in the exact opposite way the industry does.…

In critical race theory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory ), the main tenet is that racism is the combination of discrimination and power. Everyone can do negative discrimination versus anyone based on race, but it becomes racism when the party that does the discrimination has power over the party being discriminated again. If you apply this schema to patriarchy, one cannot call positive discrimina…

Thanks, said it better than I could. People never consider power when talking about race or gender, only about actions or behavior.

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#22

Post by new_corp_dev » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

frandroid wrote: post #15

new_corp_dev wrote: post #6

She says she was encouraged to apply and speak at conferences, and that management would campaign for the whole team to attend any conferences where she is accepted to speak. > This may seem like special treatment or in some ways unfair. "Reverse sexism" some might call it. I don't see it that way. This industry treats women differently, so my managers treat me differently in the exact opposite way the industry does.…

In critical race theory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory ), the main tenet is that racism is the combination of discrimination and power. Everyone can do negative discrimination versus anyone based on race, but it becomes racism when the party that does the discrimination has power over the party being discriminated again. If you apply this schema to patriarchy, one cannot call positive discrimina…

I disagree. Discrimination, both sexism and racism, is any negative treatment towards someone based on protected status, regardless of who is "in power".

The critical race theory definition is just a shield to hide behind while practicing racist or sexist behavior, and I will only acknowledge it as such.

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#23

Post by cbeach » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #14

cbeach wrote: post #4

Bryana refers several times to a fear she has been chosen or favoured due to her gender, and because of the positive discrimination we have allowed to happen in our industry. Positive discrimination is not positive, because discrimination is never positive, no matter which group it favours. And here we see the consequences - a cohort of women who will suffer the paranoia of not knowing whether they were selected on m…

I feel you are taking a very juvenile view here. One of the foundational axioms in the push for greater diversity in tech (and one I firmly support) is the idea that there is great value in a community of differing experiences and thoughts. If you accept that it's only logical to take female candidates over male candidates until the difference in their ability is judged to be greater than the advantages of adding tha…

You claim we need women to encourage different "experiences" and "thoughts." And by saying that you imply that different men don't have different experiences and thoughts. When it comes to coding, there's a huge diversity of thought. And that has no relationship to gender as far as I can see.

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#24

Post by RIMR » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:31 PM UTC

jonahrd wrote: post #13

new_corp_dev wrote: post #6

She says she was encouraged to apply and speak at conferences, and that management would campaign for the whole team to attend any conferences where she is accepted to speak. > This may seem like special treatment or in some ways unfair. "Reverse sexism" some might call it. I don't see it that way. This industry treats women differently, so my managers treat me differently in the exact opposite way the industry does.…

What kind of manager treats every single employee the same, regardless of differences in talent, background, needs, etc? If a manager hires a person who needs a bit more structure in order to stay focused, that person should be given a little more structure. Or in this case, if a manager hires someone who has been pushed down her whole life and has learned to fade into the background so as not to upset men around her…

If they said "Bryana, you're a great speaker and can really hold a crowd. We want you to attend conferences and represent our company. You're really the best at it!", then it would be wonderful. There is no need to treat every employee equally when they clearly have differing skills and strengths.

This isn't what is happening here though.

This comes off much more as "Bryana, you're our only female programmer, and we want to look more progressive and diverse than our competitors. We are sending you to conferences to speak for us so we can show you off as our token female."

It works out in her favor, so she'll never complain, but it is sexism nonetheless. Special treatment doesn't lead to equality. Equal treatment leads to equality.

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#25

Post by trjordan » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:31 PM UTC

Woah there, team. Lots of comments in here to the tune of "the support for her is sexism!"

This blog post is about a specific person and her experience. She tells you up front that she was nervous about this. Her management encouraged her to go to conferences, _and that was exactly the right response to her personal nervousness_.

There's a lot of cases where the broader social context becomes part of a person's emotional landscape. A good manager will recognize this (just like any other barrier to working effectively) and balance out doubts with encouragement. The trick is look for possible problems, and management that knows how to look for these problems and help with them is doing their job well.

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#26

Post by CatDevURandom » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #14

cbeach wrote: post #4

Bryana refers several times to a fear she has been chosen or favoured due to her gender, and because of the positive discrimination we have allowed to happen in our industry. Positive discrimination is not positive, because discrimination is never positive, no matter which group it favours. And here we see the consequences - a cohort of women who will suffer the paranoia of not knowing whether they were selected on m…

I feel you are taking a very juvenile view here. One of the foundational axioms in the push for greater diversity in tech (and one I firmly support) is the idea that there is great value in a community of differing experiences and thoughts. If you accept that it's only logical to take female candidates over male candidates until the difference in their ability is judged to be greater than the advantages of adding tha…

> very juvenile view here

What an absurd characterization. I get that you don't agree with this person, but what -- if anything -- did this person say that was juvenile?

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#27

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:33 PM UTC

RIMR wrote: post #24

jonahrd wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of manager treats every single employee the same, regardless of differences in talent, background, needs, etc? If a manager hires a person who needs a bit more structure in order to stay focused, that person should be given a little more structure. Or in this case, if a manager hires someone who has been pushed down her whole life and has learned to fade into the background so as not to upset men around her…

If they said "Bryana, you're a great speaker and can really hold a crowd. We want you to attend conferences and represent our company. You're really the best at it!", then it would be wonderful. There is no need to treat every employee equally when they clearly have differing skills and strengths. This isn't what is happening here though. This comes off much more as "Bryana, you're our only female programmer, and we…

Sure it does. Inequality can be fought with quotas, biased hiring etc. Until the culture starts to change; then you need to change tactics. Are we so rich in diverse developers, that we can stop trying? I don't think so.

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#28

Post by RIMR » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:37 PM UTC

frandroid wrote: post #15

new_corp_dev wrote: post #6

She says she was encouraged to apply and speak at conferences, and that management would campaign for the whole team to attend any conferences where she is accepted to speak. > This may seem like special treatment or in some ways unfair. "Reverse sexism" some might call it. I don't see it that way. This industry treats women differently, so my managers treat me differently in the exact opposite way the industry does.…

In critical race theory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory ), the main tenet is that racism is the combination of discrimination and power. Everyone can do negative discrimination versus anyone based on race, but it becomes racism when the party that does the discrimination has power over the party being discriminated again. If you apply this schema to patriarchy, one cannot call positive discrimina…

If we actually do break down barriers and correct our gender biases as a society, what is to stop us from continuing this "special treatment" at the expense of men? When do we say "mission accomplished"?

Case in point: "Black History Month" wasn't supposed to be permanent. We still celebrate it though, as if black history were distinctly different from American history. It started off with good intentions, but it continues to this day as an unnecessarily divisive holiday. How much "black history" is ignored 11 months out of the year just so we can celebrate it in February (the shortest month of the year)?

Sexual discrimination is sexual discrimination, regardless of context.

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#29

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:42 PM UTC

RIMR wrote: post #28

frandroid wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In critical race theory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory ), the main tenet is that racism is the combination of discrimination and power. Everyone can do negative discrimination versus anyone based on race, but it becomes racism when the party that does the discrimination has power over the party being discriminated again. If you apply this schema to patriarchy, one cannot call positive discrimina…

If we actually do break down barriers and correct our gender biases as a society, what is to stop us from continuing this "special treatment" at the expense of men? When do we say "mission accomplished"? Case in point: "Black History Month" wasn't supposed to be permanent. We still celebrate it though, as if black history were distinctly different from American history. It started off with good intentions, but it con…

Well, we can be sure folks will bring it up again. Nobody is ignoring this issue, especially on internet comment sites. But for now, the status quo is unacceptable and special treatment is called for. Doing nothing is tantamount to acceptance of the unfair situation.

Here's an idea: lets reverse things for now. You lose your job, along with most other men, and women are put in their place. That's millions of people changing jobs. How long before men start complaining? How long before 'special treatment' begins to look good to them?

Re: On being a female on a male-dominated engineering team

#30

Post by RIMR » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 7:56 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #27

RIMR wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they said "Bryana, you're a great speaker and can really hold a crowd. We want you to attend conferences and represent our company. You're really the best at it!", then it would be wonderful. There is no need to treat every employee equally when they clearly have differing skills and strengths. This isn't what is happening here though. This comes off much more as "Bryana, you're our only female programmer, and we…

Sure it does. Inequality can be fought with quotas, biased hiring etc. Until the culture starts to change; then you need to change tactics. Are we so rich in diverse developers, that we can stop trying? I don't think so.

Let's be honest. Are Bryana's employers trying to make the workplace more diverse? It doesn't seem so given that they have a 20:1 male:female ratio.

It seems much more likely that they have chosen Bryana to represent them at conferences so that they can APPEAR to be more diverse. She's a token female in a majority-male environment. If they cared about equality, they would participate in programs targeting younger girls to get them more interested in STEM jobs.

The issue isn't in staffing, it's in education. If you want to change the culture of the STEM world, look to the schools, not to the tech conferences...