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Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

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Re: Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

#21

Post by krapp »

hdctambien wrote: post #19
mschuster91 wrote: post #16

What I don't get is: can you really be terminated without notice in the US? In Germany, you have iirc minimum 4 weeks delay.

Most states in America (all of them?) have an At-Will Employment law. That means you can quit your job at any time, for any reason, effective immediately. It also means you can be fired at any time, for any reason (Except illegal reasons). effective immediately. This is a description of the law in Texas: http://www.davidcholmeslaw.com/blog/what-is-the-at-will-empl...

>It also means you can be fired at any time, for any reason (Except illegal reasons). effective immediately.

In practice this means you can usually be fired for illegal reasons as well, as long as the company can maintain plausible deniability.

Re: Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

#22

Post by mschuster91 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #20
mschuster91 wrote: post #16

What I don't get is: can you really be terminated without notice in the US? In Germany, you have iirc minimum 4 weeks delay.

Absolutely. I have seen people coming in to work in the morning and their badges didn't work anymore. They had to negotiate with security to be allowed to get their personal stuff from their desk.

God, that's sick. First world country my ass.

Re: Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

#23

Post by hwstar »

carsongross wrote: post #17
hwstar wrote: post #12

You need to be prepared at all times. You never know when (not if) they are going to come for you. I lasted 25 years and 11 months at one company before they came for me. (In hindsight, I should have quit long before the company got into such dire straits, but it was an easy commute, and the co-workers were great people to work with) Layoffs in the tech industry will happen. An emergency fund or F.U. money is require…

> 25 years and 11 months > You need to be in a position financially to live several years without a paycheck because it could take years for the job market dynamics to change and become more favourable for the employee. How insane is that? Add to the fact that cost of living is so high now in the Bay Area, and safe returns are so low, that building up any sort of true emergency savings is difficult... Insane.

I have to admit I'm not in the Bay Area, but San Diego, CA. It would be much harder to do in the Bay Area, but not impossible. In San Diego, the tech job market goes through cycles which crater deeper than the Bay Area during bad times. We really had bad times back in the early 90's when General Dynamics left. We are now facing the same thing with Qualcomm layoffs due to happen next month.

Re: Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

#24

Post by muzmath »

gaius wrote: post #7
20years wrote: post #6

Wow this highlights how brutal and vulnerable working in the tech space really is.

But... Everyone should learn to code!

No one is arguing that everyone should learn to code to become a professional programmer, in the same way that no one is arguing everyone should become a mathematicians due to mandatory geometry class.

Re: Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

#25

Post by 20years »

thrway2busy wrote: post #14
20years wrote: post #6

Wow this highlights how brutal and vulnerable working in the tech space really is.

yeah I knkow - you might need to spend up to four weeks and go through, I shit you not, dozens of unpaid interviews - robbing you of 2 hours each, and not just once but often two or three times - before you get your next $80K-$140K job offer. The tech space is absolutely brutal. Nobody other than 90% of people would think this is a tenable lifestyle.

Ha! That is true I suppose if you are in the Bay area.

Re: Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

#27

Post by shopinterest »

thrway2busy wrote: post #14
20years wrote: post #6

Wow this highlights how brutal and vulnerable working in the tech space really is.

yeah I knkow - you might need to spend up to four weeks and go through, I shit you not, dozens of unpaid interviews - robbing you of 2 hours each, and not just once but often two or three times - before you get your next $80K-$140K job offer. The tech space is absolutely brutal. Nobody other than 90% of people would think this is a tenable lifestyle.

It all depends, tech/developer vs BD/Marketing - Have experienced the up/down too of the Bay Area, and sometimes it takes months to get back in the saddle. Everyone wants the perfect employee, ready to go, nothing to train, Knows all stacks, all systems, liked by all 6-8 people who interview him/her, asks for 10% less than market rate.

Some companies want you to be an unicorn yourself, I've gone through stuff like:

'So you have years of mobile ad marketing and also years of online security service experience, years doing app marketing, already know our reporting and tracking systems, but you DONT have experience specific marketing on an online security app? Thanks for coming'

Re: Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

#28

Post by cookiecaper »

hdctambien wrote: post #19
mschuster91 wrote: post #16

What I don't get is: can you really be terminated without notice in the US? In Germany, you have iirc minimum 4 weeks delay.

Most states in America (all of them?) have an At-Will Employment law. That means you can quit your job at any time, for any reason, effective immediately. It also means you can be fired at any time, for any reason (Except illegal reasons). effective immediately. This is a description of the law in Texas: http://www.davidcholmeslaw.com/blog/what-is-the-at-will-empl...

> Most states in America (all of them?) have an At-Will Employment law.

Yes, all of them.

Re: Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

#29

Post by cookiecaper »

mschuster91 wrote: post #16

What I don't get is: can you really be terminated without notice in the US? In Germany, you have iirc minimum 4 weeks delay.

Most of the time, yes. There is a law that protects certain types of workers (primarily factory workers, iirc) and mandates that they be given 6 weeks of notice. This notice period can be converted into 6 weeks of pay (that is, you have to pay them for six weeks, but you don't have to keep them in the building), an option companies almost always take.

However, when you hear these things about America, you should understand that just because the law doesn't require notice, doesn't mean it never happens. First, no one gives notice unless they're a complete amateur; it's always laid off immediately with severance. But in many cases, severance packages are given to the employee in exchange for a separation agreement that waives all potential claims against the company, and these are sometimes quite generous (I know one guy who received over a year of severance).

When you hear "America has no sick days", or "Americans can fire anyone they want at any time", or things like that, it just means that it's not mandatory for your employer to offer these. The majority, by far, do offer good benefits and PTO, and if the company is of a reasonable size, they usually offer some type of severance, because most good employees will not go near you if you don't have good benefit and PTO policies, and they won't go near you if they know that you never give employees a break when layoffs come around (as they inevitably do).

Re: Layoffs and Loyalty in a Liquid Valley

#30

Post by balladeer »

hwstar wrote: post #12

You need to be prepared at all times. You never know when (not if) they are going to come for you. I lasted 25 years and 11 months at one company before they came for me. (In hindsight, I should have quit long before the company got into such dire straits, but it was an easy commute, and the co-workers were great people to work with) Layoffs in the tech industry will happen. An emergency fund or F.U. money is require…

> In hindsight, I should have quit long before the company got into such dire straits, but it was an easy commute, and the co-workers were great people to work with

Not as experienced as you but as a younger guy I would like to share my experience - I lasted 4 years and few months before I was asked to go. Even though I never considered myself irreplaceable in a firm of 6K+ coders, it was a revelation how "business strategies" may "require you to be let go" which would be of course "better for your career". Finding another job was super easy for me (I believe that was because of my young developer age). But I was really bitter about the "let go" process and the way things were handled. It was only after few months that I realised that it was actually very good for my career and yes when I look back I see I should have left the place at least 3 years ago when things had started to change and I still didn't act. It was just a good salary, a very tightly knit team, and a relaxed work environment. I had gotten into the comfort zone. When I was out I took that long cherished 3 months cross country solo backpacking trip.

As for the emergency fund - yes, even for a younger person like me with no responsibilities or liabilities a medical insurance (I had been paying for one since I had joined - here in my country medical insurance in general means whatever your firm offers me and usually no one buys any medical insurance on their own) was something I had along with regular transfers from salary account to few deposit accounts and into some equity funds.

> Once you are over 50 like me, you need to be in a position financially to live several years without a paycheck

This! I have been planning for this as a retirement strategy now. Actually as an "involuntary retirement" strategy. It might sound naive and may actually be naive but when I am planning for my MS now, this is one of the use-cases I have in mind. With an MS I will have another career option (or rather call it freelancing) - teaching in colleges and universities as adjunct/visiting faculty. One of my lecturers (actually one of the better ones) did not have a PhD. He told us he was laid off from his job and he didn't want to find another job in the industry and he was considering a PhD (he was 53 at the time). He taught in some other colleges too.

And yes, a company may ask you to go at the first sign of trouble and hence I find it incredibly surprising when employees leaving a company at the first sign of trouble are frowned upon and are often called "disloyal" by some people.

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