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Prisons or Colleges?

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Re: Prisons or Colleges?

#21

Post by marcusbooster »

hugh_ wrote: post #19

One of my favourite theories on prison reform: a huge problem with prisons is the formation of gangs and other social structures within the prison walls; not only do these promote the emergence of a criminal culture within the prison, they also make the prisoners harder to guard. This could be solved by keeping everybody in solitary confinement, but that's overly cruel. Instead, I'd propose splitting the prison into…

Just that many prisoners already know each other from their own neighborhoods. The groundwork of the social structure is already in place. The problem is not guarding prisoners, the problem with prison reform is that it doesn't reform anything. The question is what do we want prisoners to do once they're out? There is always a political push for longer sentences but it's economically infeasible. So if we're then asking what we can do to make these people productive members of society again, then that takes money.

Re: Prisons or Colleges?

#22

Post by qeorge »

hugh_ wrote: post #19

One of my favourite theories on prison reform: a huge problem with prisons is the formation of gangs and other social structures within the prison walls; not only do these promote the emergence of a criminal culture within the prison, they also make the prisoners harder to guard. This could be solved by keeping everybody in solitary confinement, but that's overly cruel. Instead, I'd propose splitting the prison into…

I'm assuming that the whole thing could be accomplished without occupying any more space than the existing prison system, and hopefully with fewer guards.

This would not be the case. Enforcing such a policy would be prohibitively expensive. Following the theme of the article, we can't even afford In my opinion the solution is simple: put less people in prison. This chart says it all for me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-...

Re: Prisons or Colleges?

#23

Post by hugh_ »

qeorge wrote: post #22
hugh_ wrote: post #19

One of my favourite theories on prison reform: a huge problem with prisons is the formation of gangs and other social structures within the prison walls; not only do these promote the emergence of a criminal culture within the prison, they also make the prisoners harder to guard. This could be solved by keeping everybody in solitary confinement, but that's overly cruel. Instead, I'd propose splitting the prison into…

I'm assuming that the whole thing could be accomplished without occupying any more space than the existing prison system, and hopefully with fewer guards. This would not be the case. Enforcing such a policy would be prohibitively expensive. Following the theme of the article, we can't even afford In my opinion the solution is simple: put less people in prison. This chart says it all for me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

Let's assume that the fraction of people in prison has grown over the last 70 years. This is either because sentencing has got harsher or because people are committing more crimes. Anecdotally, though, sentencing seems to have got less harsh -- for instance in the 1950s the Boggs act resulted in minimum mandatory sentences of 5-20 years for a first drug offense. Thus, we must conclude that people are committing more crimes than before.

Now, either they're committing more crimes because sentencing has got less harsh, or they're committing more crimes because of other social factors (eg the growth of gang culture, drug culture, et cetera). Either way it's not clear to me that making sentencing even less harsh than it already is will solve anything.

Re: Prisons or Colleges?

#24

Post by Alex3917 »

jfornear wrote: post #18
Alex3917 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Why should the government be spending more on the school system than on prisons? There isn't even a real argument, it's just being taken as a given. If anything improving the prison system should be given higher priority than fixing the college system, because prisoners have to be there. They don't have a choice. Whereas students can just opt out of college, or else go to a private college.

I think this idea is premised on the notion that there may be an inverse relationship between education and crime. http://www.jstor.org/pss/27529879

At the risk of being pedantic, the study you cite is about educational attainment vs incarceration, not education vs crime.

Re: Prisons or Colleges?

#25

Post by anamax »

bilbo0s wrote: post #2

I applaud the Governor's intentions, it is far more sensible to allocate resources to higher education than to prisons. Having mentioned that, I think it should be stated that he is solving the wrong problem here. The reason tuition is increasing so rapidly in California is because the State no longer has the wherewithal to properly fund its educational institutions. This is a direct consequence of the fact that Cali…

> This is a direct consequence of the fact that Californians are able to vote on ballot initiatives obligating that state's government to take on, sometimes quite expensive, commitments.

The voter mandated spending is less than the revenue, so the gap is due to spending that the legislature and governor insisted on.

> Pair this with the fact that Californians have made increasing their tax burden exceedingly difficult

Not true, and not relevant due to the above.

> the law enforcement brotherhoods and lobbyists will come after him.

It's interesting that you didn't mention the education lobbyists, who get 50% by statute.

> the people of California must be especially difficult to manage.

Let me suggest that politicians are not supposed to "manage" the people that they supposedly represent and should fail when they try.

BTW - CA has three strikes because politicians couldn't be trusted to keep violent thugs in jail. That was a change - until the 70s, they did.

Re: Prisons or Colleges?

#26

Post by teeja »

dschobel wrote: post #11
teeja wrote: post #7

"California spends about $50,000 a year per inmate" On the surface, that number looks somewhat insane.

For food, clothing, shelter, medical care and 24 hour-a-day supervision by union employees?

I know where I'm retiring!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079219/

Re: Prisons or Colleges?

#27

Post by qw »

marcusbooster wrote: post #21
hugh_ wrote: post #19

One of my favourite theories on prison reform: a huge problem with prisons is the formation of gangs and other social structures within the prison walls; not only do these promote the emergence of a criminal culture within the prison, they also make the prisoners harder to guard. This could be solved by keeping everybody in solitary confinement, but that's overly cruel. Instead, I'd propose splitting the prison into…

Just that many prisoners already know each other from their own neighborhoods. The groundwork of the social structure is already in place. The problem is not guarding prisoners, the problem with prison reform is that it doesn't reform anything. The question is what do we want prisoners to do once they're out? There is always a political push for longer sentences but it's economically infeasible. So if we're then aski…

Yes, that's the problem. They need to get an incentive to prepare for life outside prison. Many of the prisoners don't have the education or the skills to get a real alternative. If they have a choice of a minimum wage or selling drugs, they will often choose the easy way.

I think the best solution would be to increase prison sentences, but give a similar (if not greater) reduction if they choose to re-educate/train themselves. They would also have to show a real intent, so that they don't just sit there without making an effort.

This will not work for everyone, but I am sure that it will reduce the number of prisoners with 3 strikes.

The second problem is the actual workplaces. The state should pay a large amount of the ex-prisoner's salary for the first year, and a smaller amount in the second year. This will encourage companies to hire them. I'm not an economist, but I assume that this cost will be payed back by keeping them out of prisons.

Re: Prisons or Colleges?

#28

Post by foldr »

hugh_ wrote: post #23
qeorge wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming that the whole thing could be accomplished without occupying any more space than the existing prison system, and hopefully with fewer guards. This would not be the case. Enforcing such a policy would be prohibitively expensive. Following the theme of the article, we can't even afford In my opinion the solution is simple: put less people in prison. This chart says it all for me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

Let's assume that the fraction of people in prison has grown over the last 70 years. This is either because sentencing has got harsher or because people are committing more crimes. Anecdotally, though, sentencing seems to have got less harsh -- for instance in the 1950s the Boggs act resulted in minimum mandatory sentences of 5-20 years for a first drug offense. Thus, we must conclude that people are committing more…

>This is either because sentencing has got harsher or because people are committing more crimes.

Or because more crimes are being prosecuted. It's completely false to say that it must be for one or other or those two reasons.

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