UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition' • Hacker News Board

Re: UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition'

#21

Post by wavefunction » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 3:53 PM UTC

iamthepieman wrote: post #13

The article is awfully light on what exactly was sold to the Ugandan government. The article states the technology can be used, "to spy on the enemy, collect data, intrude enemy systems, intercept enemy communication and also manipulate transmissions. "It can covertly be deployed in buildings, vehicles, computers, mobile phones, cameras and any other equipment deemed worthy for information extraction or surveillance.…

Come on, the important part is "intrude enemy systems, intercept enemy communication and manipulate transmissions"

The big red flag for you should be "enemy" rather than "someone I disagree with politically."

Re: UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition'

#22

Post by grkvlt » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 4:30 PM UTC

togusa wrote: post #2

For reference, Gamma Group are a well known bunch of evil bastards in the UK. Nothing they do is considered honorable. Literally nothing. They also pretty much have a license to do what the hell they like under government mandate as a lot of things they do are actually pretty much illegal if someone founded a startup to do it today. It says everything about the place when I had my CV put forward by an agent a few yea…

> actually pretty much illegal

Not at all. This is like saying weapons manufacturing is illegal, just because they can be used for committing murder. As for Gamma Group being 'evil' that's also a bit of an overstatement. I don't want to get into a huge ethical debate here, but the principle is that tools are morally neutral, their users or mis-users are the ones that should be criticised.

Re: UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition'

#23

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

grkvlt wrote: post #22

togusa wrote: post #2

For reference, Gamma Group are a well known bunch of evil bastards in the UK. Nothing they do is considered honorable. Literally nothing. They also pretty much have a license to do what the hell they like under government mandate as a lot of things they do are actually pretty much illegal if someone founded a startup to do it today. It says everything about the place when I had my CV put forward by an agent a few yea…

> actually pretty much illegal Not at all. This is like saying weapons manufacturing is illegal, just because they can be used for committing murder. As for Gamma Group being 'evil' that's also a bit of an overstatement. I don't want to get into a huge ethical debate here, but the principle is that tools are morally neutral, their users or mis-users are the ones that should be criticised.

At some point it becomes the bully on the playground, holding your arm and hitting you with it, chanting 'stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!'

Weapons manufacturing in bulk for sale to anybody with cash can be called evil, with good reason.

Re: UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition'

#24

Post by johansch » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 5:00 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

Such software should be classified as arms for export purposes.

Living in Sweden, it's relatively common to read the news that Ericsson has sold networking equipment to some company in country X where the required feature "lawful intercept" has been used to something horribily bad by a corrupt regime.

If Ericsson would block the sales of network equipment to those kind of countries on that ground, Huawei would jump in and gladly accept the deal instead. :/

Re: UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition'

#25

Post by schoen » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 5:04 PM UTC

johansch wrote: post #24

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

Such software should be classified as arms for export purposes.

Living in Sweden, it's relatively common to read the news that Ericsson has sold networking equipment to some company in country X where the required feature "lawful intercept" has been used to something horribily bad by a corrupt regime. If Ericsson would block the sales of network equipment to those kind of countries on that ground, Huawei would jump in and gladly accept the deal instead. :/

Maybe Ericsson could try to get privacy-protective technical features into the GSM specs. (The best time to do that would have been between 1999 and 2001. It will be harder now.)

GSM is a privacy and security nightmare.

Re: UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition'

#26

Post by secfirstmd » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 5:08 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #4

I'm a British citizen, how can we stop this from happening again. I don't think writing a letter to my MP is going to change anything since I write very often (yearly, since snowden) about surveillance, and nothing changes.

Surprisingly, there are many quiet parts of the Conservative Party who think this sort of thing has gone on too long. Especially the (increasingly small) Libertarian branch. People like David Davis (the former candidate for party leader) are a good start. Ditto reach out to people in the House of Lords, whatever we may think of the institution, there are many very influential voices there. Baroness Manningham-Buller for example, though the former head of MI5, is actually a surprisingly strong critic of such surveillance. Esp when it's over seas.

Re: UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition'

#27

Post by togusa » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 5:18 PM UTC

grkvlt wrote: post #22

togusa wrote: post #2

For reference, Gamma Group are a well known bunch of evil bastards in the UK. Nothing they do is considered honorable. Literally nothing. They also pretty much have a license to do what the hell they like under government mandate as a lot of things they do are actually pretty much illegal if someone founded a startup to do it today. It says everything about the place when I had my CV put forward by an agent a few yea…

> actually pretty much illegal Not at all. This is like saying weapons manufacturing is illegal, just because they can be used for committing murder. As for Gamma Group being 'evil' that's also a bit of an overstatement. I don't want to get into a huge ethical debate here, but the principle is that tools are morally neutral, their users or mis-users are the ones that should be criticised.

Bollocks.

Re: UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition'

#28

Post by toyg » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 7:34 PM UTC

secfirstmd wrote: post #26

dijit wrote: post #4

I'm a British citizen, how can we stop this from happening again. I don't think writing a letter to my MP is going to change anything since I write very often (yearly, since snowden) about surveillance, and nothing changes.

Surprisingly, there are many quiet parts of the Conservative Party who think this sort of thing has gone on too long. Especially the (increasingly small) Libertarian branch. People like David Davis (the former candidate for party leader) are a good start. Ditto reach out to people in the House of Lords, whatever we may think of the institution, there are many very influential voices there. Baroness Manningham-Buller…

David Davis, will all due respect, is completely isolated in his own party and mostly fulfils a theatrical role these days.

Re: UK firm's surveillance kit 'used to crush Uganda opposition'

#29

Post by anonbanker » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 7:49 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

Such software should be classified as arms for export purposes.

I tried bringing up Second Amendment Protections applying to software about fifteen years ago to the Electronic Frontier Foundation. I got a polite letter back laughing at me.

Let's just say I agree with you, though.