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Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

reuters.com

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Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#21

Post by aw3c2 »

rygarfo wrote: post #14

What about the owners of VW cars that aren't affected by the consumption fraud. I would imagine the value of their cars will, regardless of the diesel engine, decrease with the saturation of people selling their cars or trying to return them. Is it possible for non-affected owners to be compensated as well for loss in market value as a result of the company's actions? Concerned Jetta owner here asking smarter people.

I hope not, that would be insane. If a car is not worth its price when you buy it, don't buy it.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#22

Post by inversionOf »

alan_cx wrote: post #11
prolepunk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as we know, all other manufactures complied with environmental regulations. Cars will have to be recalled and it will be a huge hit for VW.

I believe that Mercedes and BMW have reasonable suspicion cast on them too.

Both of those platforms use Urea systems, as do larger and more expensive VW/Audio vehicles. The issue is purely in the small, inexpensive vehicles.

The NOx problems were mostly resolved through the injection of urea into exhaust gases (e.g. AdBlue), dramatically reducing NOx emissions while leaving the efficiency and power unaffected. Urea systems add an extra cost and complexity to the vehicle though (not to mention that you need to top up your urea additive occasionally), and VW seemed to find a loophole that allowed them to make small, inexpensive cars without urea injection. They did this by injecting fuel into the exhaust in the absence of Urea, but to achieve the same effect. But this can gunk up the NOx trap if used endlessly (it is far less precise than urea, obviously), reduces fuel economy, etc, so they built this One Little Trick that only actually does that during identified tests.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#23

Post by DasIch »

jeffdavis wrote: post #4

What would happen if all the affected consumers demanded the full purchase price returned to them and returned their used cars? It seems clear that they would win, because they were fraudulent sales. But that would bankrupt VW, right?

It's not at all clear that they would win. There is an article by a German lawyer on the topic[1]. The tl;dr of it is, that given that the car works mostly as intended and that any damage to individual customers is little (if it even exists) customers won't get back the full purchase price and probably not even any money, especially if VW were to provide a fix.

[1]: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/rechtsanwalt/zivilrecht/vertrag...

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#24

Post by jsnathan »

jeffdavis wrote: post #4

What would happen if all the affected consumers demanded the full purchase price returned to them and returned their used cars? It seems clear that they would win, because they were fraudulent sales. But that would bankrupt VW, right?

I just took a quick look at WP [1], and it looks like they have over $350b in assets. Don't think it will bankrupt them, either way.

Not to mention that they are probably "too big to fail" [2].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_big_to_fail

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#25

Post by jakejake »

rygarfo wrote: post #14

What about the owners of VW cars that aren't affected by the consumption fraud. I would imagine the value of their cars will, regardless of the diesel engine, decrease with the saturation of people selling their cars or trying to return them. Is it possible for non-affected owners to be compensated as well for loss in market value as a result of the company's actions? Concerned Jetta owner here asking smarter people.

It'll be some firmware upgrade, the emissions will be fine but fuel economy will suffer by some minor amount. Then everyone will move on to the next tragedy.

I don't really see a massive run on people trying to sell or return their car. I'm sure a few will to try to make a point, or perhaps to try to get a new car out of the deal.

That's my prediction for the record!

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#26

Post by a3n »

arethuza wrote: post #18
adventured wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would instantly bankrupt VW, in almost any way you cut it. I have no idea what the intricacies of German bankruptcy laws are, but I imagine they could cut a deal with car owners, and then emerge back out of bankruptcy in whatever German equivalent manner that would occur. That scenario will never happen though, there won't be enough global coordination between vehicle owners. The only way that type of outcome occu…

International companies of any size aren't a single legal entity - bankrupting VW USA (which presumably sold the cars) is probably a limited liability subsidiary of VW - so it could go bankrupt without necessarily bankrupting the parent company.

If VW USA went bankrupt, and ceased to operate, then that loss of sales might contribute to a mothership bankruptcy or bailout.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#27

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

dba7dba wrote: post #13
adventured wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economist has an interesting article out right now, about how the discussion over diesel cars is almost moot with the rapid rise of the electric car globally over the next few years: http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21666226-volkswagens-f...

Globally? Electric cars will never reach that much consumers in Asia as it has in US. Very few people in Shanghai/Seoul/Tokyo own private garage to charge cars in over night. And this is why Toyota/Hyundai are stubbornly pushing Hydrogen cars.

Maybe not cars, but perhaps busses will be the preferred electric vehicle in Asia. China's BYD has been building electric busses for a while, and even Los Angeles is buying.

To me electric busses seem a no-brainier for municipalities: they have predictable routes so you can schedule around charging times, fuel costs can be beneath what you'd pay for gasoline, and cities looking to reduce their carbon footprint can point to the busses and a demonstrable difference.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#28

Post by cbhl »

aw3c2 wrote: post #21
rygarfo wrote: post #14

What about the owners of VW cars that aren't affected by the consumption fraud. I would imagine the value of their cars will, regardless of the diesel engine, decrease with the saturation of people selling their cars or trying to return them. Is it possible for non-affected owners to be compensated as well for loss in market value as a result of the company's actions? Concerned Jetta owner here asking smarter people.

I hope not, that would be insane. If a car is not worth its price when you buy it, don't buy it.

IIRC, that's not how car prices work. A new car on a lot is worth far more than a used car with exactly 0 miles driven on it.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#29

Post by chr15 »

rygarfo wrote: post #14

What about the owners of VW cars that aren't affected by the consumption fraud. I would imagine the value of their cars will, regardless of the diesel engine, decrease with the saturation of people selling their cars or trying to return them. Is it possible for non-affected owners to be compensated as well for loss in market value as a result of the company's actions? Concerned Jetta owner here asking smarter people.

Would like to know this as well. I have a gasoline Golf and I'm concerned its depreciation has accelerated.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#30

Post by icebraining »

dba7dba wrote: post #13
adventured wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economist has an interesting article out right now, about how the discussion over diesel cars is almost moot with the rapid rise of the electric car globally over the next few years: http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21666226-volkswagens-f...

Globally? Electric cars will never reach that much consumers in Asia as it has in US. Very few people in Shanghai/Seoul/Tokyo own private garage to charge cars in over night. And this is why Toyota/Hyundai are stubbornly pushing Hydrogen cars.

The idea that people need private garages to charge their cars seems silly. You can have plugs in public garages or even regular parking spaces, with cables you securely attach to both ends (to prevent energy theft) and a payment system. It's not that much more complex than a parking meter.
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