The Drug-Violence Myth • Hacker News Board

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#21

Post by qnaal » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 6:59 PM UTC

verbin217 wrote: post #18

qnaal wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Much of the social history of the Western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good." -Thomas Sowell

Tradition isn't the solution.

> There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."

-G. K. Chesterton

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#22

Post by rambambam » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 7:02 PM UTC

bittercynic wrote: post #9

DiabloD3 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having that issue here, but it seems to be dependent on javascript to do anything.

Have to allow JS from filepicker.io, two amazon.aws domains, and a cloudfront domain.

Off-topic: Only allowing the cloudfront-domain worked for me.

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#23

Post by msandford » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 7:02 PM UTC

gress wrote: post #20

qnaal wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perhaps one could alternatively say the violence is black market related

The police use violence to protect the regular market. One could just as easily say that violence is market related.

Or perhaps violence is enforcement related, generally.

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#24

Post by borkabrak » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 7:05 PM UTC

angdis wrote: post #11

happyscrappy wrote: post #7

It is hard to dispute that inner city gun violence is drug related, which is probably why they don't mention it.

Indeed, all you have to do is to read up on who's murdering who. Drugs and violence are intimately tied together at least in the USA. The laws are set-up to punish drug offenders based on the quantity of drugs in one's possession. Beyond a certain quantity, the offender crosses a threshold into "distribution" rather than "use"-- and long histories of violent, organized crime is typical for those folks.

The text of the article is designed to respond to exactly this familiar argument. If you're reading this, angdis, you may be interested in reading the article.

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#25

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 7:05 PM UTC

qnaal wrote: post #21

verbin217 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tradition isn't the solution.

> There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. T…

[deleted]

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#26

Post by borkabrak » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 7:06 PM UTC

msandford wrote: post #23

gress wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police use violence to protect the regular market. One could just as easily say that violence is market related.

Or perhaps violence is enforcement related, generally.

And now I'm dying to know what percentage of violent crimes involve police.

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#27

Post by msandford » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 7:11 PM UTC

borkabrak wrote: post #26

msandford wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps violence is enforcement related, generally.

And now I'm dying to know what percentage of violent crimes involve police.

It's an interesting though, that it's possible (no idea how likely) that violence could be decreased through a reduction in laws such that the amount of enforcement -- and thus violence -- is reduced.

I really wish that we had good stats on this stuff so that the laws could be crafted to minimize violence. Anyone who says we're civilized and "beyond that" isn't paying attention, it's just that the violence has largely been outsourced so that a portion of affluent society can feel that we're "beyond that".

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#28

Post by trhway » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 7:12 PM UTC

we know that alcohol is connected to violence. Lets outlaw alcohol and thus decrease the violence... Or as they say here (that pearl of government-hypocrisy-speak has just made my day, i'll probably add it to email signature :)

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/brief-history

"Prohibition created a new federal medium for fighting crime,"

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#29

Post by Natsu » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 7:13 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #25

qnaal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. T…

[deleted]

That seems to be in full agreement with his quote.

Understanding the purpose of something is necessary precondition of evaluating it on its merits. Using your "back of the bus" example, the purpose of that was to reinforce the idea that black people were somehow inferior. That's a pretty terrible purpose, which is why society has harshly rejected and removed it.

Re: The Drug-Violence Myth

#30

Post by lukifer » Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 7:14 PM UTC

There are mental gymnastics involved anytime the umbrella term "drugs" is invoked; the behavioral differences between cannabis, LSD, PCP, heroin and crack cocaine are so staggering, it's absurd to talk about them lumped together. You might as well try to include roller skates, go-carts and fighter jets into traffic laws.

Anecdotally, there are instances where there is a correlation between some drugs and violence, which is why the myth persists, even if the statistical likelihood of violence is identical for non-drug-related circumstance. But the vast majority of drug violence is a product of inevitable black markets, and a reflection of the misused violence of the state.