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The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

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Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#21
For all those who haven't read it, check out the "sequel", The Forever Peace. I place "sequel" in quotes, because it's only thematically related, there's no continuation of characters or plots.

In fact, it's set much closer to the present, and the use of remote-controlled robots makes it feel super-current. Unlike The Forever War, it envisions one way war could end. The final line of the Vice story is "When war is unthinkable, it will stop", and in The Forever Peace, Haldeman shows one way it could be achieved.

As much as I love TFW, I personally think The Forever Peace is a stronger novel.

Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#22
post #14

Just a thought. If you enjoyed these books, you might like _Old Man's War_.

I didn't really care for Old Man's War . It's a fun read, but it's popcorn. It was a bit too juvenile nanotech wankfest for me. Nominally it looks at subjects like long life, implanted AIs, etc., but it doesn't really do anything with them other than go "squeeeee look at the tooyyyyyys". EDIT: If you want to just bask in the sheer glory of superior firepower and gallows humor, and maybe even occasionally see somethin…

The greatest crime of Old Man's War is that it has a wonderful hook: we don't want 18 year olds, we want our recruits to be canny and wise and experienced, so we recruit 70 year olds and rejuvenate them...

And then it does basically nothing with that. The 70 year old soldiers distinguish themselves in no way from the 30ish protagonists of every other scifi story.

Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#23

I read Starship Troopers and The Forever War back-to-back in like three days, and I wasn't so much of a fan of Haldeman's book, the writing just didn't seem as good to me as Heinlein's and in any case they're nearly identical -- though obviously the relativity thing and time making the "forever" part true was a very good point.

Saying they're "nearly identical" seems to miss the point that the former is a paen to the military filled with lieutenant colonels waxing philosophical about how duty to fight is the basis of all morality, whilst the latter involves a brazenly cynical protagonist whose thoughts of war mostly involve hoping to find a way out of it...

> paen to the military

I always thought Starship Troopers was meant to be a satire, not praise for war. Just like Springsteen's Born in the U.S.A. isn't a patriotic song.

Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#24

I read Starship Troopers and The Forever War back-to-back in like three days, and I wasn't so much of a fan of Haldeman's book, the writing just didn't seem as good to me as Heinlein's and in any case they're nearly identical -- though obviously the relativity thing and time making the "forever" part true was a very good point.

Saying they're "nearly identical" seems to miss the point that the former is a paen to the military filled with lieutenant colonels waxing philosophical about how duty to fight is the basis of all morality, whilst the latter involves a brazenly cynical protagonist whose thoughts of war mostly involve hoping to find a way out of it...

>a brazenly cynical protagonist whose thoughts of war mostly involve hoping to find a way out of it...

Catch-22?

Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#25
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying they're "nearly identical" seems to miss the point that the former is a paen to the military filled with lieutenant colonels waxing philosophical about how duty to fight is the basis of all morality, whilst the latter involves a brazenly cynical protagonist whose thoughts of war mostly involve hoping to find a way out of it...

> paen to the military I always thought Starship Troopers was meant to be a satire, not praise for war. Just like Springsteen's Born in the U.S.A. isn't a patriotic song.

Given Heinlein's history and politics, I don't think so.

Now the movie, that was definitely meant to be satire. Which is why so many fans of the book hate it.

Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, mankind has probably not been at war for most of its existence. Homo sapiens comes into existence ~200kya. By contrast, there is no evidence of warfare for most of the Paleolithic, and the first unambiguous evidence only comes ~10-12kya. In other words, the development of warfare is only roughly contemporaneous with the development of agriculture and sedentarism.

The avoidance of war was probably due to the low population numbers and the ability of groups of hunter/gatherers to avoid each other. As the population grew and humans came into more frequent contact with each other, warfare was a natural by-product of the increased contact between groups.

Agriculture also brought in a massive change in how humans regarded territory. For hunter-gatherer societies there was basically no impulse to fight over territory. Everything they needed could be foraged, and the things they foraged were plentiful.

Once we switched from foraging in a bountiful nature to scrounging a meager living from the dirt, defending that dirt or seizing more of it became a much bigger thing.

Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying they're "nearly identical" seems to miss the point that the former is a paen to the military filled with lieutenant colonels waxing philosophical about how duty to fight is the basis of all morality, whilst the latter involves a brazenly cynical protagonist whose thoughts of war mostly involve hoping to find a way out of it...

> paen to the military I always thought Starship Troopers was meant to be a satire, not praise for war. Just like Springsteen's Born in the U.S.A. isn't a patriotic song.

You are correct, it is satirical. But its a common misconception that its some sort of military love-letter.

Edit: So I assume that downvotes now are a form of disagreement rather than a measure of contribution to the discussion.

Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#28
This is a spectacularly bad article.

The author starts out with the right idea,

"It’s about as pitch-perfect metaphor for what it’s like to go to war a civilian can ever hope to absorb—not only is the organized violence of the battlefield interminable, but the dislocation brought about to those subjected to it is total and unrelenting, too."

but then drops off into the convenient and easy, but completely false, proposition that science fiction is about predicting the future. And does so badly:

"In fact, when we begin our discussion in earnest, and I tell him his book has seemed to have proved prescient, that all signs seem to point to a perpetual state of forever war, he laughs."

The forever war of the Forever War is a completely different kind of beast from the forever war discussed in the article. That first quote above is a very good description of the book, that war permanently removes even those who survive it from the society they were part of before, but the "military adventuring" that they go on to discuss has more in common with the late 19th century exploits of the British Empire (and the fiction regarding those) and with Vietnam itself than with the story of the Forever War. (As an aside, does anyone have any information about the longest period the United States has gone without using military force somewhere? I have this suspicion that post-Vietnam may be it.)

Then we get things like

"...3D printers may soon allow anyone with the right hardware to manufacture deadly weaponry at home. Obscene weapons are increasingly obscenely easy to find."

(Does someone need to point out that, historically, everyone has normally had access to something equivalent tothe most deadly weapons of their time? How about the fact that "3D printers" doesn't do anything but advertise that this is a "techy" article?)

and

"His words resonate, depressingly, when you consider that the US now averages one mass shooting per day[1], and that the trend is only accelerating upwards."

(The link defines "mass shooting" as "any single incident in which at least four people are shot, including the gunman." If you're having to defend your ideas with statements like "But there's an uncomfortable assumption here that some crime victims' lives should be valued differently — or are less worthy of attention — than others." you have likely gone off some kind of edge somewhere.)

And what am I supposed to do with quotes like, "'I don’t know what we do about that,' he adds. 'I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable taking away that freedom, and I don’t even have guns.'" and "'The idea of abolishing war has been with us for thousands and thousands of years,” he adds. 'I think we’re more likely to invent the speed of light.'"

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/08/26/we...

Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying they're "nearly identical" seems to miss the point that the former is a paen to the military filled with lieutenant colonels waxing philosophical about how duty to fight is the basis of all morality, whilst the latter involves a brazenly cynical protagonist whose thoughts of war mostly involve hoping to find a way out of it...

I actually don't think it's much of an ode to war or anything. I go to the Naval Academy like Heinlein did, and when I read the small details of military life and the grandiose calls to serve, I read them as criticisms or as satire.

As I understood it Henlein wrote the book at a time when he'd just formed a campaign group denouncing opposition to nuclear testing as a 'communist plot', and spent a great deal of time after the book's publication defending some of the book's more controversial ideas and their compatibiity with his otherwise mostly libertarian views

Agree that it might actually read better with a healthy dose of irony, but just as with Henlein's awkward sex scenes, that's not really the intent.

Re: The Author of Our Best SF Military Novel Explains the Future of War

#30

I read Starship Troopers and The Forever War back-to-back in like three days, and I wasn't so much of a fan of Haldeman's book, the writing just didn't seem as good to me as Heinlein's and in any case they're nearly identical -- though obviously the relativity thing and time making the "forever" part true was a very good point.

Saying they're "nearly identical" seems to miss the point that the former is a paen to the military filled with lieutenant colonels waxing philosophical about how duty to fight is the basis of all morality, whilst the latter involves a brazenly cynical protagonist whose thoughts of war mostly involve hoping to find a way out of it...

> Saying they're "nearly identical" seems to miss the point that the former is a paen to the military

Its been quite a long time since I read Starship Troopers, but IIRC it doesn't read like much of a paean to the military on any but an extremely shallow reading.

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