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What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

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Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#21
post #19
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm not implying a logical disconnect; I'm saying that if your goal is diversity, the notion of a "meritocracy" gets in the way. More in my comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10208825

The goal isn't diversity, though. The goal is meritocracy, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enables meritocracy.

Speak for yourself. Many people who benefit from the current systemic biases would agree with you; many people who don't -- and some think society as a whole would be better if the systemic biases were reduced -- see thins differently.

> The goal is meritocracy, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enables meritocracy.

In other words "The goal is anti-diversity, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enables the anti-diversity goal."

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#22
post #17
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privilege increases merit via education and culture. Why would you ever assume meritocracy would naturally lead to a diverse workplace? A cursory glance through most "white" or "male" privilege arguments shows this is very much not true. Given that this is true, the responsible thing would be to both acknowledge that you want diversity and that certain groups are underserved in the field. How to resolve this in terms…

> Privilege increases merit That definition of "merit" implies that whites have more merit than blacks (because they tend to be more privileged) and men have more merit than women. If your goal is to increase diversity, that's not a helpful definition. > Why would you ever assume meritocracy would naturally lead to a diverse workplace? Exactly. Any definition of "meritocracy" will have embedded biases, and so won't l…

> > Privilege increases merit

> That definition of "merit" implies that whites have more merit than blacks (because they tend to be more privileged) and men have more merit than women. If your goal is to increase diversity, that's not a helpful definition.

What he wrote was "Privilege increases merit via education and culture". Why did you cut off the "via education and culture" part?

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#23
post #3

Excellent point from Freada: "My first piece of advice is to stop thinking about yourself as a meritocracy. Because if you believe you’re a meritocracy and you have numbers like everybody who has released their data, the implicit message is that Caucasian men are better than everyone else. Because that’s who is overrepresented."

But if your company actually is a meritocracy (i.e., it hires and promotes solely based on objective measures of suitability for the job) in a tech field and it is reasonably large, then it will in fact be mostly white and asian.

Acknowledging this fact does NOT imply that whites and asians are better than others. It just implies that whites and asians go into tech fields at a higher rate than others.

If you want to increase diversity, it is far better to acknowledge this and then work on finding out why some groups have a low rate of going into tech, and fixing that.

It's like Jews and doctors in the US. Jews are about 1.2% of the US population, but 14% of US doctors. This doesn't imply that Jews are better than everyone else at medicine. Jews are so overrepresented among physicians because Jewish culture in the US greatly admires and respects physicians and children are steered toward becoming doctors from an early age.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#24

Question: What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? Diversity for thee, but not for me. Also, while we're discussing Things You Should Not Notice: what are the numbers as far as litigiousness of "protected" groups? If I'm looking to hire someone, non-protected status (whether it…

> What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? > How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? > Diversity for thee, but not for me. Can I ask you a quick question here? What does any of this matter? Diversity isn't about protecting yourself from character assassination. It's about promoting fairness, equality, and opportunity…

> If you look in the past of anyone, you will find things they regret and things that may draw censure from the pro-diversity and intersectional feminist mindset. That's natural. That's to be expected.

Serious question: is it also "expected" that people will lose their jobs because of those things, like Brendan Eich?

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#25
post #23
post #3

Excellent point from Freada: "My first piece of advice is to stop thinking about yourself as a meritocracy. Because if you believe you’re a meritocracy and you have numbers like everybody who has released their data, the implicit message is that Caucasian men are better than everyone else. Because that’s who is overrepresented."

But if your company actually is a meritocracy (i.e., it hires and promotes solely based on objective measures of suitability for the job) in a tech field and it is reasonably large, then it will in fact be mostly white and asian. Acknowledging this fact does NOT imply that whites and asians are better than others. It just implies that whites and asians go into tech fields at a higher rate than others. If you want to…

> But if your company actually is a meritocracy (i.e., it hires and promotes solely based on objective measures of suitability for the job) in a tech field and it is reasonably large, then it will in fact be mostly white and asian.

Choosing objective measures of merit first requires choosing a subjective choice of how to define merit -- what the mission is and what things are needed to fulfill it.

And, in point of fact, many "objective measures of merit" are objective measures that have a tenuously presumed connection to merit in the specific job that are adopted because of what amounts to cultural traditions in the profession.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#26
post #21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal isn't diversity, though. The goal is meritocracy, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enables meritocracy.

Speak for yourself. Many people who benefit from the current systemic biases would agree with you; many people who don't -- and some think society as a whole would be better if the systemic biases were reduced -- see thins differently. > The goal is meritocracy, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enables meritocracy. In other words "The goal is anti-diversity, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enab…

> In other words "The goal is anti-diversity, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enables the anti-diversity goal."

Meritocracy is not anti-diversity. Meritocracy is correlated with diversity. Choosing meritocracy where they diverge is nothing more than accepting that diversity is not the one true goal of all things.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#27
> Or changing employee referral networks. When I ask if companies have employee referral networks, most say yes. But if I ask whether they’d have a structure for referrals of underrepresented groups, people often think that’s discriminatory and unfair.

Because it is. You can only remove bias by removing bias, not by introducing counter-bias. Removing names from resumes works, imposing quotas doesn't.

The problem with trying to counter bias with bias is that you can't make a shift on one axis without affecting five others. A bias in favor of e.g. racial minorities exacerbates the bias against everyone else of an underrepresented sex, economic status, religious minority, country of origin, disability, etc. But trying to enumerate all of the underrepresented groups is not only impossible because there are innumerably many of them, it leads to tokenism. Get yourself a couple of employees who each check multiple boxes and the numbers look good even when most of your employees are still white or asian male christian americans from middle class families.

By contrast, the bias in referral networks is the status quo. Hiring the people your existing employees know doesn't make a lack of diversity worse in any direction, it only fails to improve it by making future employees look like current employees. In theory there is an argument that when the status quo is unbalanced, anything that continues the status quo is also unbalanced, but that doesn't actually point to any solution. The status quo is the continuation of the status quo. Figuring out what will make positive change takes more than objecting to things that make no change.

And one way or another you still have to get 'em while they're young.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#28
post #21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal isn't diversity, though. The goal is meritocracy, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enables meritocracy.

Speak for yourself. Many people who benefit from the current systemic biases would agree with you; many people who don't -- and some think society as a whole would be better if the systemic biases were reduced -- see thins differently. > The goal is meritocracy, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enables meritocracy. In other words "The goal is anti-diversity, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enab…

The goal is to get shit done. If diversity enables you to get shit done better than non-diversity, then let's be diverse.

The old great metaphor for America was that it was a "melting pot." The metaphor comes from smelting. When you smelt metal, you're not promoting diversity - you're creating a homogeneous alloy. You also skim off the slag and throw it out.

It's not a particularly pleasant metaphor when you think about it.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#29

Question: What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? Diversity for thee, but not for me. Also, while we're discussing Things You Should Not Notice: what are the numbers as far as litigiousness of "protected" groups? If I'm looking to hire someone, non-protected status (whether it…

> What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? > How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? > Diversity for thee, but not for me. Can I ask you a quick question here? What does any of this matter? Diversity isn't about protecting yourself from character assassination. It's about promoting fairness, equality, and opportunity…

> Can I ask you a quick question here? What does any of this matter?

You may want to check comment history of parent poster.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#30
post #22
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Privilege increases merit That definition of "merit" implies that whites have more merit than blacks (because they tend to be more privileged) and men have more merit than women. If your goal is to increase diversity, that's not a helpful definition. > Why would you ever assume meritocracy would naturally lead to a diverse workplace? Exactly. Any definition of "meritocracy" will have embedded biases, and so won't l…

> > Privilege increases merit > That definition of "merit" implies that whites have more merit than blacks (because they tend to be more privileged) and men have more merit than women. If your goal is to increase diversity, that's not a helpful definition. What he wrote was "Privilege increases merit via education and culture". Why did you cut off the "via education and culture" part?

To highlight the implications of what they were saying.
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