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The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

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21–30 of 61 posts

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#21
The reasons presented in favor of a mathematical universe read somewhat like rehashed arguments used by deists/theists.

> For something to be physical it must be present at some time and place within the universe, and for something to be abstract it must exist outside of space and time.

No. He is redefining words here. 'Physical' is not usually defined as "exists in space and time". Abstract thoughts or concepts do not exist outside of space and time. Abstract thoughts are the results of the modeling capabilities of brains and exist very much in the physical world. It isn't even known whether "existing outside of space and time" is a coherent concept.

> but if the universe is a mathematical object, it needs no creator (on Platonism at least),

Firstly, this is the Kalam argument all over again. It isn't clear at all that the Universe needs a beginning or whether the 'beginning of the Universe' is a coherent concept at all.

Secondly, even assuming mathematical platonism is true, and even if 'creation' was a prerequisite for the universe, mathematical platonism has no construct to go from 'describing a universe' to 'creating a universe'. That seems to be quite an important thing to miss.

> Our universe is fine-tuned because it is one which has the ability to support conscious thought selected from an infinite multitude of mathematical structures, most of which are lifeless.

This is very problematic. Once you start thinking about "different mathematics", you lose all foundations upon which you can reason. Logic does not work anymore. Even if it were true at all, no human could possibly have meaningful thoughts about it. Besides, if we abandon the concept of our 'mathematical structures' in other universes, what do the words true and false itself even mean?

There's lots of handwaving with (very) incoherent concepts and dubious logic in this post to make the argument for a mathematical universe.

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#22

Lets say you select all the aspects of a person's life that you consider to have any relevance to anyone and write down a description of every one of them—is that person now 'made' of words? That's how ridiculous this is. I think what this is missing is a justification for thinking the universe somehow 'uses' mathematics in this sense; being /describable/ by it, is not at all the same as actually being generated by i…

I think mathematics and physics sets the bar higher then subjective relevance when formulating descriptions. If you did manage to create a description that would accurately predict every response of a person then you would have a hard time (if not impossible) discerning the difference between the two agents.

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#23
post #22

Lets say you select all the aspects of a person's life that you consider to have any relevance to anyone and write down a description of every one of them—is that person now 'made' of words? That's how ridiculous this is. I think what this is missing is a justification for thinking the universe somehow 'uses' mathematics in this sense; being /describable/ by it, is not at all the same as actually being generated by i…

I think mathematics and physics sets the bar higher then subjective relevance when formulating descriptions. If you did manage to create a description that would accurately predict every response of a person then you would have a hard time (if not impossible) discerning the difference between the two agents.

But one of them wouldn't be something anyone would call an 'agent.' One would be a description of an agent, or a recipe for producing one—but at the end of the day, one is meat and the other is a set of symbols.

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#24
post #21

The reasons presented in favor of a mathematical universe read somewhat like rehashed arguments used by deists/theists. > For something to be physical it must be present at some time and place within the universe, and for something to be abstract it must exist outside of space and time. No. He is redefining words here. 'Physical' is not usually defined as "exists in space and time". Abstract thoughts or concepts do n…

Concepts can indeed exist outside physical brain matter. Such as the concept of math. The idea that 1+1=2 does not need a physical human brain to exist. If humans never existed the concept of math would still exist "beyond space and time". Abstract thoughts cannot exist outside space and time for human comprehension but those same concepts do not need humans to exist.

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#25
If the universe was "made of mathematics," then there would necessarily exist a Grand Unified Theory. But, Hawking asserts that Gödel's Theorems imply that not only does a Grand Unified Theory not exist, but that the formulation of one is impossible (http://www.hawking.org.uk/godel-and-the-end-of-physics.html).

The author stresses that all of reality is mathematical in structure, but this is at odds with the fact that all mathematical systems containing self-reference are necessarily incomplete. Physics is a self-referential system.

If the structure of the universe is mathematical, it is probably a very different math than humans are used to. Insert your favorite flavor of metaphysics here!

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#26
post #21

The reasons presented in favor of a mathematical universe read somewhat like rehashed arguments used by deists/theists. > For something to be physical it must be present at some time and place within the universe, and for something to be abstract it must exist outside of space and time. No. He is redefining words here. 'Physical' is not usually defined as "exists in space and time". Abstract thoughts or concepts do n…

Concepts can indeed exist outside physical brain matter. Such as the concept of math. The idea that 1+1=2 does not need a physical human brain to exist. If humans never existed the concept of math would still exist "beyond space and time". Abstract thoughts cannot exist outside space and time for human comprehension but those same concepts do not need humans to exist.

I'd love to have some evidence that such things as 'concepts' and 'ideas' can exist independent of brains. You can't just assert it and make it so. All concepts and ideas I've ever heard of were the results of brains attempting to model or describe.

By the way, I'm not talking about physical human brains. I'm talking about any brain, which includes human brains, dolphin brains, computers, and whatever other modeling machines exist in the universe.

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#27
I don't understand why people still believe in this concept. For me it's quite simple:

1. Our nervous system has quite narrow and well defined capability of receiving signals from the outside world. Every of our senses has own limitations. We can't see UV or IR etc.

2. Our body has a specific way of interacting with the world : we have specific size, strength, have to operate as one, undivided entity etc.

3. With such input coming from the above points, our brain creates a specific model of the outside world to function in it, interact, count apples and lions etc.

4. Part of this model is this cool toolset containing math and logic. It's very useful for us to predict and analyze the world and it's so flexible that we can expand and bend it according to our will in face of mismatch between observable reality and math.

So there is no surprise that we keep seeing math around us. We created it as a result of interaction with the world.

But to insist that math is the real way the world works is ridiculous. It's like saying that there's nothing beyond the visible spectrum of light because we can't see it.

I'm quite sure that any creatures with significantly different bodies than ours would come up with different "math" and different view of the universe.

EDIT: I was trying to imagine such creatures but gaps in my knowledge and limitations of my homo sapiens mind are hard to escape and imagine something unimaginable. But I'll give it a try: Think of a creature built of 100 autonomously moving clouds of particles, sharing one consciousness. The clouds can change their sizes in the ping-pong - planet range and communicate by radio waves. I think that just the ability to watch specific event from 100 perspectives would give this alien completely different psychology and approach to the logic, truth etc.

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#28
post #21

The reasons presented in favor of a mathematical universe read somewhat like rehashed arguments used by deists/theists. > For something to be physical it must be present at some time and place within the universe, and for something to be abstract it must exist outside of space and time. No. He is redefining words here. 'Physical' is not usually defined as "exists in space and time". Abstract thoughts or concepts do n…

Concepts can indeed exist outside physical brain matter. Such as the concept of math. The idea that 1+1=2 does not need a physical human brain to exist. If humans never existed the concept of math would still exist "beyond space and time". Abstract thoughts cannot exist outside space and time for human comprehension but those same concepts do not need humans to exist.

But the word 'concept' refers to something specifically human: it's a name we've given to a category of human mental activity. Particular concepts may /refer/ to things that would be there without humans—but the concept making the reference would not. The whole issue under discussion comes down to that distinction.

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#29
post #21

The reasons presented in favor of a mathematical universe read somewhat like rehashed arguments used by deists/theists. > For something to be physical it must be present at some time and place within the universe, and for something to be abstract it must exist outside of space and time. No. He is redefining words here. 'Physical' is not usually defined as "exists in space and time". Abstract thoughts or concepts do n…

I agree with your points on Kalam but have to nitpick on everything else.

On the "describing reality" to "creating reality". Very few people argue for ex-nihilo creation but far more people tend to project that on the opposing side (ie where did god come from? what was before the big bang?). I don't think the author is arguing that mathematics allows for creating reality from nothing but that anything that resembles reality behaves mathematically and thus can transform into new situations with new mechanics (or realities).

Second nitpick: different mathematics. You don't loose the foundations of reason, rather you are stating that with different assumptions a system behaves differently. You are still computing the logical outcome with the premises given. If you have a universe where true and false mean the same then you have a very small universe that doesn't support any differentiation. Take comfort in knowing this helps solve Gödel’s incompleteness theorem. We can construct an infinite number of consistent mathematical realities but only by comparing their predictions to our reality can we resolve which reality is our own.

Re: The Universe Is Made of Mathematics

#30

Lets say you select all the aspects of a person's life that you consider to have any relevance to anyone and write down a description of every one of them—is that person now 'made' of words? That's how ridiculous this is. I think what this is missing is a justification for thinking the universe somehow 'uses' mathematics in this sense; being /describable/ by it, is not at all the same as actually being generated by i…

Also my perspective on it. The means by which we describe, comprehend, or measure something is not the same as what it is actually made of.

Math is a quantitative description methodology, but no amount of "math" will bring a single photon into being.

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