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Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

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Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#21

Post by gtk40 »

fluidcruft wrote: post #12
gilgoomesh wrote: post #6

> University of Oxford says the fragments were produced between the years 568 A.D. and 645 A.D. Muhammad is generally believed to have lived between 570 A.D. and 632 A.D. Without a narrower range, it's ridiculous to say that it predates Muhammad. At most it predates the first known, fully assembled Qur'an from 653CE. (Aside: I realize this story comes from Fox News but its listing of dates as "Anno Domini" is in poor…

Oh, please. CE means precisely AD but with a gloss of PC lipstick. Next we're going to hear that uttering AD instead of CE triggers those of weak constitution.

Older works I have seen referred to CE as meaning "Christian Era" anyway. I don't know if that predates "Common Era" or not, though.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#22

Post by chipuni »

news_1776 wrote: post #13

This is highly unlikely as the parchment contains diacritical marks which were not introduced until 4 caliphs/leaders after the Prophet who had all already died/been killed. This has been mentioned by many critics as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_diacritics#history This seems more like a means to incite Muslims rather than science.

Not JUST the diacritical marks. The writing style looks like Nashk, which came much MUCH later than the Koran.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#23

Post by DanBC »

vixen99 wrote: post #16
gilgoomesh wrote: post #6

> University of Oxford says the fragments were produced between the years 568 A.D. and 645 A.D. Muhammad is generally believed to have lived between 570 A.D. and 632 A.D. Without a narrower range, it's ridiculous to say that it predates Muhammad. At most it predates the first known, fully assembled Qur'an from 653CE. (Aside: I realize this story comes from Fox News but its listing of dates as "Anno Domini" is in poor…

Why poor taste? As is common knowledge A.D. is an abbreviation for Anno Domini. You might as well say that calling Muhammamad 'The prophet' is in poor taste. For most people in the Western world the year zero is an arbitrary number and not understood as year of 'Our Lord' nor is Muhammad regarded as a prophet. Both are aids to communication not exegesis. Not living in the US, the reference to Fox News is a bit lost o…

> Perhaps it's equivalent to the seemingly obligatory sideswipe at the British Daily Mail on the part of some folk.

The Daily Mail carries comments from people wanting refugees to be shot (a variety of ammunition is suggested, a few only want rubber bullets, a few want live rounds) or tear gassed, or sprayed with sewage.

Recently some bloggers took anti Jewish Nazi propaganda and changed the word "Jew" to "migrant" and posted it to the DM comments sections. Readers upvoted those comments.

DM regularly has creepy articles about underage girls. http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/all-grown-up-sexing-up-the-in...

The Daily Mail is scum.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#24

Post by hackuser »

gilgoomesh wrote: post #6

> University of Oxford says the fragments were produced between the years 568 A.D. and 645 A.D. Muhammad is generally believed to have lived between 570 A.D. and 632 A.D. Without a narrower range, it's ridiculous to say that it predates Muhammad. At most it predates the first known, fully assembled Qur'an from 653CE. (Aside: I realize this story comes from Fox News but its listing of dates as "Anno Domini" is in poor…

You omitted a significant phrase

> The Times of London reported ...

That's a News Corp. (Fox, Wall St Journal, etc.) publication. Unfortunately it is no surprise that they might try to undermine people who believe in Islam. News Corp's open religious prejudice, and propaganda, have a long track record.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#25

Post by virmundi »

mandazi wrote: post #7

>The Times of London reported that radiocarbon dating carried out by experts at the University of Oxford says the fragments were produced between the years 568 A.D. and 645 A.D. Muhammad is generally believed to have lived between 570 A.D. and 632 A.D. The man known to Muslims as The Prophet is thought to have founded Islam sometime after 610 A.D., with the first Muslim community established at Medina, in present-day…

For other news sources the researchers estimate that given the importance of the Koran it would have used the newest products. This is, of course, wild speculation. There is no way to confirm or deny that the original Korans were written on new parchments.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#26

Post by DanBC »

s_q_b wrote: post #20

Alright, this headline just seems wrong. First, radiocarbon dating comes with error bars. The date range identified is from 570 C.E. to 632 C.E. Given that Muhammad is thought to have founded Islam in the period from 610 C.E. to 630 C.E., and that date keeping was relatively good in this period, this would seem to confirm rather than dispute the traditional accounts. Second, the radiocarbon dating was performed on th…

> and like all religions it inspires everything from massive works of charity to zealotry, persecution, and bigotry.

A few people try to claim that other religions don't inspire terrorist groups, but that's clearly bullshit.

Buddhism is generally seen as pacifist but there's a Buddhist army and probably 2 Buddhist terrorist groups. (And that's not including Aum Shinryko)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Karen_Buddhist_Army

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodu_Bala_Sena

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/969_Movement

etc.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#27

Post by news_1776 »

verandaguy wrote: post #3

I'm very interested in how research into this will develop, but I'm also concerned about zealots going out of their way to slow down any such research. If this is true, it could be a major turning point for many of the Abrahamic religions, not just Islam. Hopefully this encourages more skepticism than aggressive idealism.

Do you think Muslims will trust a group that is to them a bunch of random British researchers that just happened to come across an old piece of parchment with Arabic writing just lying around in a British university? Also this is coming from a country that to them seems biased against them. That my friend is just plain crazy.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#28

Post by hackuser »

news_1776 wrote: post #13

This is highly unlikely as the parchment contains diacritical marks which were not introduced until 4 caliphs/leaders after the Prophet who had all already died/been killed. This has been mentioned by many critics as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_diacritics#history This seems more like a means to incite Muslims rather than science.

That's very interesting. Do you happen to know a good place to read about that (i.e., more reliable than Wikipedia)?

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#29

Post by s_q_b »

DanBC wrote: post #26
s_q_b wrote: post #20

Alright, this headline just seems wrong. First, radiocarbon dating comes with error bars. The date range identified is from 570 C.E. to 632 C.E. Given that Muhammad is thought to have founded Islam in the period from 610 C.E. to 630 C.E., and that date keeping was relatively good in this period, this would seem to confirm rather than dispute the traditional accounts. Second, the radiocarbon dating was performed on th…

> and like all religions it inspires everything from massive works of charity to zealotry, persecution, and bigotry. A few people try to claim that other religions don't inspire terrorist groups, but that's clearly bullshit. Buddhism is generally seen as pacifist but there's a Buddhist army and probably 2 Buddhist terrorist groups. (And that's not including Aum Shinryko) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Karen…

Wholeheartedly agreed. The ethnic cleansing by the Buddhist majority of the Muslim minority in Myanmar is horrifying right now.

I'm very disappointed in Aung San Suu Kyi's leadership thus far. I suppose we'll see what she does after the election.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#30

Post by npalli »

DanBC wrote: post #26
s_q_b wrote: post #20

Alright, this headline just seems wrong. First, radiocarbon dating comes with error bars. The date range identified is from 570 C.E. to 632 C.E. Given that Muhammad is thought to have founded Islam in the period from 610 C.E. to 630 C.E., and that date keeping was relatively good in this period, this would seem to confirm rather than dispute the traditional accounts. Second, the radiocarbon dating was performed on th…

> and like all religions it inspires everything from massive works of charity to zealotry, persecution, and bigotry. A few people try to claim that other religions don't inspire terrorist groups, but that's clearly bullshit. Buddhism is generally seen as pacifist but there's a Buddhist army and probably 2 Buddhist terrorist groups. (And that's not including Aum Shinryko) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Karen…

I hadn't heard of the Buddhist Army, so I looked at your link in wiki. Kind of undermines your point.

> Though the majority of Karens are Buddhist, the Karen political leadership and leadership of the Karen insurgency have been overwhelmingly Christian, as a legacy of American missionary influence over the 19th and early 20th centuries.

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