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My lazy American students

boston.com

21–30 of 71 posts

Re: My lazy American students

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how I should "keep this in mind." She teaches at a college which focuses on business. How does this explain the difference she sees between her American students and her international students? (I'm not trying to be difficult - though I'm told it comes natural to me. I just don't see your point.)

He might be intoning the stereotype (which may or may not be true) that there are more "slacker" students joining business programs, whereas engineering students tend to be more focused and disciplined. Therefore, you might see a very different article from an instructor at MIT.

Right, but that difference (if it were real, which I doubt) should cut across the two groups of students (American and non-American).

Or at least, we have no reason to think that "business students are lazier than other students" tracks or causes the difference between Americans and others that the author focuses on.

Re: My lazy American students

#22
Nice. Now there's this. I went from an American high school to a Dutch university (admittedly a decade and a half ago, but still) and was shocked to discover that Dutch students as a matter of principle refuse to put in any effort that will push them beyond the barest minimum above a passing grade whereas the Americans I was used to at least tried to shoot for, say, a C, and if they were especially ambitious, a B or even a B+.

(that said, at the "American high school" I went to there were also a large number of Indian, Taiwanese and Korean kids and, like the article suggests, they made it a matter of principle to never receive less than an A+ in any course they took - although, that said, they rarely enrolled in courses where their chances of receiving such grades were in peril: very few Taiwanese and Koreans took history or English literature, for example)

Re: My lazy American students

#23
post #10

To offer a contrarian view, I have two friends from India this semester who got caught for plagiarizing in their English class. This is just this semester. I won't make any big judgement calls about international students based on observing my few friends. But hey, it does make me believe that international students are less aware of the consequences of things like plagiarizing. I think they are a little behind on it…

Based on your experience of two friends from India , you started believing that international students are less aware of the consequences of plagiarizing. Your point is nonsensical on so many levels. First, since when did 'two friends from India' begin reflecting the attitudes of millions of students all over the world ( international ), only a fraction of which end up in the US in the first place. Second, how can yo…

This was a tongue-in-cheek response to the original article which seems to make sweeping generalizations about American students from the experiences of one professor.

It seems to be that you are subtly implying that the American education system inculcates some sense of ethics (discouraging things like plagiarism) in the students, which for some inexplicable reason the education system of these international students doesn't.

Exactly. The same could be argued about the original author's suggestion that the American education system in-builds laziness while the international system of millions of students does not.

In reality, I wouldn't call it ethics--far from that! American students don't plagiarize (as much) because they know they will get caught and face insane consequences. Indian students(my friends) don't know the perceived seriousness of it so they fail a class they had a 96 in because they plagiarized the final paper. I really pity my friend more than blame him.

Btw, my bias/generalizations are quickly repudiated and doesn't get published in a widely distributed paper for good reasons. The original author gets to make a huge splash. That's the problem.

Also, I split my K-12 education between India and U.S so I have experienced both sides of the education system.

Re: My lazy American students

#24
post #8

One thing I still can't understand is how so many people are okay asking for an extension on something. I can't believe how many of my peers ask for extensions on papers and programming assignments. It's unreal. School might not be as high a priority as my startup right now, but I never turn in anything late. I think tardiness is the worst kind of habit to have.

At my college, the professors explicitly told us to always ask for extensions if we needed it, provided it was a few days to a week in advance. It is a form of time management to know ahead of time that you have 60 hours worth of work due in the next 48 hours, and talking to the professor builds communication skills and the good habit of giving feedback to your superiors. If you're talking about asking for an extensi…

I can understand that. What bothers me though is the attitude that it is okay to ask for extensions on a regular basis.

Perhaps this has more to do with the role college plays in American society. I believe that college has become more of a high school extension than anything, and so maybe it is wrong to blame students who treat it as such. I doubt they would be slacking off in grad school (but I can't be sure!)

Re: My lazy American students

#25
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my college, the professors explicitly told us to always ask for extensions if we needed it, provided it was a few days to a week in advance. It is a form of time management to know ahead of time that you have 60 hours worth of work due in the next 48 hours, and talking to the professor builds communication skills and the good habit of giving feedback to your superiors. If you're talking about asking for an extensi…

I can understand that. What bothers me though is the attitude that it is okay to ask for extensions on a regular basis. Perhaps this has more to do with the role college plays in American society. I believe that college has become more of a high school extension than anything, and so maybe it is wrong to blame students who treat it as such. I doubt they would be slacking off in grad school (but I can't be sure!)

It's OK to ask. You may not get the extension, but given the amount of unannounced lateness teachers often see, asking for an extension in advance with a "how can we work this out" attitude looks like an attempt to be responsible. Contrast with an attitude of starting things the day they're due and then acting surprised when you can't finish a multi-week project in one day.

Re: My lazy American students

#26
post #10

To offer a contrarian view, I have two friends from India this semester who got caught for plagiarizing in their English class. This is just this semester. I won't make any big judgement calls about international students based on observing my few friends. But hey, it does make me believe that international students are less aware of the consequences of things like plagiarizing. I think they are a little behind on it…

Based on your experience of two friends from India , you started believing that international students are less aware of the consequences of plagiarizing. Your point is nonsensical on so many levels. First, since when did 'two friends from India' begin reflecting the attitudes of millions of students all over the world ( international ), only a fraction of which end up in the US in the first place. Second, how can yo…

While I agree with your sentiments on a lack of proper data, there is another hypothesis for foreign students, perhaps having a higher rate of cheating. One that is not bigoted at all, and applies equally well to a subset of north american students.

Some cultures, India, China, perhaps others, currently place immense value on education. This brings with it immense pressure. While that can lead to a good work ethic, perhaps the immense pressure can also lead to a higher likelihood of cheating. It's not that these students underestimate the risk of getting caught, but more that they may be more afraid of the reaction of their family or peers back home if they fail.

Getting good grades is not exclusively a result of hard work. Often it can be genuinely challenging. For some international students, failing can mean a loss of scholar ship and thus having to leave back home. For students in China, for example, this may mean a loss of freedom, and certainly a big loss of social rank back home.

North American students studying here may occasionally have a lot of pressure from home, but they never risk being denied citizenship, or being relegated to low paying jobs for the rest of their life with no chance of improving.

In some graduate programs, this fact is occasionally taken advantage of by unethical professors, who can get away with treating their international students poorly.

Re: My lazy American students

#27
This article was entirely alien to me. Why should I care about the work of people who don't even care about it themselves?

Then I thought I'd recast the situation into a more familiar setting. Apologies to OP. Make sure you read her version first. Does my version seem any stranger to you?

It was the kind of pitch I hate.

"I’ll do better," my software vendor told me, leaning forward in his chair. "I know I’ve gotten behind this phase, but I’m going to turn things around. Would it be OK if I finished all your uncompleted requirements by Monday?"

I sat silent for a moment. "Yes. But it’s important that you catch up completely this weekend, so that you’re not just perpetually behind."

A few weeks later, I would conduct a nearly identical conversation with two other vendors. And, again, there would be no tangible result: No make-up software. No change in effort. No improvement in time management.

By the time entrepreneurs are in the marketplace, habits can be tough to change. If you’re used to playing video games like "Modern Warfare" or "Halo" all night, how do you fit in four hours of customer revisions? Or rest up for a demo?

Building start-ups in this market, especially one with a large international population, has given me a stark - and unwelcome - illustration of how Americans’ work ethic often pales in comparison with their peers from overseas.

My failing entrepreneurs this semester are almost exclusively American, while my entrepreneurs from India, China, and Latin America have - despite language barriers - generally written solid software, excelled on prototypes, and become valuable business partners.

One woman from Shanghai became a fixture at Super Happy Dev House, embraced our coworking center, and incessantly e-mailed me questions about her evolving website. Her javascript is still mediocre: she frequently puts ";" everywhere (as in "x = y;y = z;z = a;") and confuses global variables with local variables. But that didn’t stop her from doing rewrite after rewrite, tirelessly trying to improve both syntax and performance.

Chinese entrepreneurs have consistently impressed me with their work ethic, though I have seen similar habits in entrepreneurs from India, Thailand, Brazil, and Venezuela. Often, they’ve done little server-side coding in their home companies, and they frequently struggle to understand my specifications. But their respect for customers - and for business itself - is palpable. The entrepreneurs listen intently to everything I say, whether on-line or at code reviews, and try to engage in the process.

Too many 18-year-old American entrepreneurs, meanwhile, text one another under their workstations (certain they are sly enough to go unnoticed), check e-mail, decline to take notes, and appear tired and disengaged.

Of course, it would be wrong to suggest that all American entrepreneurs are the same. I’ve engaged many who were hardworking, talented, and deeply impressive. They listened intently, engaged customer dialogues, and never shied away from code rewrites. At their best, American entrepreneurs marry knowledge and innovation, resulting in some astoundingly creative web apps.

But creativity without knowledge - a common phenomenon - is just not enough.

Too many American entrepreneurs simply lack the basics. In 2002, an O'Reilly survey found that most 18- to 24-year-olds could not find regular expressions, data base access, or sorting algorithms in a PDF document, ranking them behind counterparts in Sweden, Great Britain, Canada, Italy, Japan, France, and Germany. And in 2007 the American Institutes for Research reported that eighth graders in even our best-performing states - like Massachusetts - scored below peers in Singapore, South Korea, and Japan, while entrepreneurs in our worst-performing states - like Mississippi - were on par with eighth graders in Slovakia, Romania, and Russia.

We’ve got a knowledge gap, spurred by a work-ethic gap.

Which brings me to another code-challenged entrepreneur, who once sprinted across the office to talk to me.

"I’m really sorry I missed your targets," he said. "Do you have time to talk?"

"I have a meeting in a couple of minutes," I said. "But you can walk with me."

"OK," he said. "I really enjoy your challenge, and I think I can do better. How can I improve my site?"

I looked at him sideways. "Well, you might start with writing some code."

"Yeah," he grinned, looking at his shoes. "Sorry about that. There’s always stuff going on in my office late in the day. I have to learn to be better about time management."

Of course, he had it exactly right. Success is all about time management, and in a globalizing economy, Americans’ inability to stay focused and work hard could prove to be a serious problem.

Nowhere, sadly, is this clearer than in the marketplace.

Re: My lazy American students

#28
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on your experience of two friends from India , you started believing that international students are less aware of the consequences of plagiarizing. Your point is nonsensical on so many levels. First, since when did 'two friends from India' begin reflecting the attitudes of millions of students all over the world ( international ), only a fraction of which end up in the US in the first place. Second, how can yo…

While I agree with your sentiments on a lack of proper data, there is another hypothesis for foreign students, perhaps having a higher rate of cheating. One that is not bigoted at all, and applies equally well to a subset of north american students. Some cultures, India, China, perhaps others, currently place immense value on education. This brings with it immense pressure. While that can lead to a good work ethic, p…

perhaps having a higher rate of cheating

I had a professor from France this semester. He went on a tirade about how we should cover our papers and not cheat. The whole class(all Americans) seemed pretty lost and could not relate to his lecture on cheating. I see a similar response when mainly foreign professors ask students to switch seats and spread around the room on exam days.

My French professor said when he went to college in the US, he had moments where the professor left the class and my professor(then a student) would look around him hoping folks would "cooperate"(in funny French accent). I'm not sure how much of that was said as a joke but I think the sentiment has at least some truth to it.

I can definitely tell you that while I was in India and my initial few years in the US, I was under immense pressure to perform. That is also when I would be most inclined to do not-so-ethical things. Then over time the pressure goes away and the incentive to cheat does not seem greater than just doing the work or accepting a poor grade.

Re: My lazy American students

#29

> Of course, it would be wrong to suggest that all American students are the same. ... > Success is all about time management, and in a globalizing economy, Americans’ inability to stay focused and work hard could prove to be a serious problem.

And you know what's really sad about how poorly argued the editorial is? The author is a teacher of Rhetoric and History and based on her description of her students, I bet she teaches freshman composition or the like. (If that doesn't ring any bells, many colleges require incoming students - all or nearly all - to take a semester or a year of critical reading and writing courses in their first year. It's basically remedial education by another name.)

Re: My lazy American students

#30

> Of course, it would be wrong to suggest that all American students are the same. ... > Success is all about time management, and in a globalizing economy, Americans’ inability to stay focused and work hard could prove to be a serious problem.

And you know what's really sad about how poorly argued the editorial is? The author is a teacher of Rhetoric and History and based on her description of her students, I bet she teaches freshman composition or the like. (If that doesn't ring any bells, many colleges require incoming students - all or nearly all - to take a semester or a year of critical reading and writing courses in their first year. It's basically r…

My favorite comment about this same article elsewhere in cyberspace: "I don't know whether to say if she's bad at rhetoric because her argument is so poor or if she's good at rhetoric because she got printed in a major newspaper."
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