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Eve Version 0

chris-granger.com

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Re: Eve Version 0

#21

Post by fcanas »

mkozlows wrote: post #10

So after they didn't exactly revolutionize the IDE with Light Table, and pivoted to revolutionizing programming, they seem to have kind of come around to revolutionizing... groupware? Which at least seems more plausible, as it ought to be possible to make a better groupware application than Lotus Notes. I think the larger implication is: Programming tools are actually pretty good, and the larger process of programmin…

1. Modern programming tools have a decades-long head start

2. Why denigrate group ware?

While this may not succeed, I have little reason to believe future improvements will all be evolutionary (I know you hedged there, saying "probably"). A lot can be learned from shedding assumptions. If the result of the project is inspiration for building tools on top of traditional programming models, the originators may be disappointed, but I'd call that success in basic research.

Re: Eve Version 0

#22

Post by webjprgm »

dgreensp wrote: post #14
mkozlows wrote: post #10

So after they didn't exactly revolutionize the IDE with Light Table, and pivoted to revolutionizing programming, they seem to have kind of come around to revolutionizing... groupware? Which at least seems more plausible, as it ought to be possible to make a better groupware application than Lotus Notes. I think the larger implication is: Programming tools are actually pretty good, and the larger process of programmin…

I get the opposite message, which is that programming tools and the process of programming are so bad, it's hard to get a computer to do a simple task for you without tearing your hair out, never mind building a UI. A better IDE (basically a better text editor) doesn't even scratch the surface.

Yeah. They said for doing simple things rather than building complex systems the current tools are not very convenient.

I find it really useful to use Ruby's built-in CSV library to process data for spreadsheets then visualize it with a graph in Numbers. I pull data from copy-paste tables, extract from Sqlite databases embedded in applications, etc. But for something like scanning Facebook friends as they suggested I'd have to first figure out the API or how to scrape the data. Once I figured that out it probably wouldn't be too hard to write a script for it. I could probably even put it in a crontab (LaunchAgent plist on a Mac).

Anyway, I think there's a huge opportunity to empower more people who are inquisitive and maybe somewhat technical but are not programmers. Make it easy for these people to solve problems rather than trying to teach them to "program". The end goal in my mind is the StarTrek programming model where you discuss with the computer what you want to do to solve a problem. Those crew members are scientists and engineers but only a few of them are "programmers". (StarTrek is a useful yardstick because we seem to like copying technology out of it. E.g. StarTrek communicator which is the late 90s cell phone and StarTrek PADD which is the SmartPhone/tablet.)

Re: Eve Version 0

#23

Post by eterm »

cpr wrote: post #6

So it looks like they've come a rather long way around to building the world's best graphical query builder, with plans for much more beyond?

OT: I hope that is the case. I've been responsible for building query-like tools for end users, and all the current stuff out there completely sucks.

For example, no non-programmer I've ever talked to can correctly explain the difference between:

A and B or C

A and C or B

And to be fair, it's only because of arbitrary precedence rule choices that those are different at all.

I've personally found that dealing with groups and instead of having "AND, OR" you have "ALL, ANY" and always group rules (even if they're groups of one rule).

But even when you have that, you then have to deal with nesting rules, and nests of nests.

The actual implementation of the backend of such systems is easy, the composite pattern / delegates pretty much deals with the implementation.

But the front-end side? They tend to then be forgotten and universally suck, to the point that either it gets handed off to a developer or query-tool expert to use, or some horrific mistake such as accidentally mail-shotting everyone[1] which causes them to never try to have automatic query rules again.

Graphical query building for the end-user is a really difficult area which hasn't seen enough research.

[1] I want to mail Visited Yesterday And are either Men Or Under 30. Instead of "Visit > Yesterday AND (Men OR Under 30). They forget the brackets. Whoops, that's half their clients hit.

Re: Eve Version 0

#25

Post by fcanas »

tzakrajs wrote: post #11

I still have no idea what this is after reading the blog.

Still no idea after following the link on the first line:

> Never heard of Eve? [Read more here](http://witheve.com/)

...

> Eve is our way of bringing the power of computation to everyone, not by making everyone a programmer but by finding a better way for us to interact with computers. On the surface, Eve is an environment a little like Excel that allows you to "program" simply by moving columns and rows around in tables. Under the covers it's a powerful database, a temporal logic language, and a flexible IDE that allows you to build anything from a simple website to complex algorithms.

Re: Eve Version 0

#28

Post by jamii »

mej10 wrote: post #17
fortytw2 wrote: post #2

Interesting ideas, very different, but still reminds me a lot of Light Table (probably because they have the same author :p) Seems to be built on a rather interesting Rust + TypeScript stack? Can't say I've seen that one before - anyone have experience with such a stack?

The stack choice is especially interesting since I thought they were big fans of Clojure. I would like to hear their rationale for Rust/TypeScript over Clojure/ClojureScript (or Clojure/Javascript). EDIT: typo

There was some discussion in http://incidentalcomplexity.com/2015/02/24/january--february...

> While running in the browser is a requirement for Eve, it's always been clear that using javascript directly was not a long-term option. So many of our implementation problems come down to lack of control over data layout. For Eve we need to implement:

> New types (like intervals) - but there is a space overhead of 24 extra bytes per object Polymorphic comparisons - but dispatching on typeof is slow Cache-friendly indexes - but it's hard to store multiple js objects sequentially in memory Radix tries - but converting strings to bytes is slow

> We also want to be able to distribute native code for mobile devices and use real threads on servers. Lastly, there is some benefit to using reference-counting for the indexes so that we can avoid copying nodes when we know we have sole access.

> We ruled out C++ and D on aesthetic grounds - we have a preference for small, simple languages that we can understand completely. Rust wins points for safety and abstraction but the toolchain is not nearly as mature and there are issues that currently prevent compiling with Emscripten. C gives us less support in the language but is much more future-proof at the moment.

I also wrote about our experiences with Rust later at http://scattered-thoughts.net/blog/2015/06/04/three-months-o...

Re: Eve Version 0

#29

Post by moron4hire »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #24

What happened to Light Table? Did it evolve into Eve? Is Light Table abandoned?

He had a blog post about this, how early design decision to make absolutely every feature in the editor a plugin over-complicated the design to the point that he was the only one who could maintain it, and maintenance was all the more he could do. So yes, LightTable itself is done. He also said he planned on returning to addressing the goals of LightTable in the future.

Re: Eve Version 0

#30

Post by mej10 »

mkozlows wrote: post #10

So after they didn't exactly revolutionize the IDE with Light Table, and pivoted to revolutionizing programming, they seem to have kind of come around to revolutionizing... groupware? Which at least seems more plausible, as it ought to be possible to make a better groupware application than Lotus Notes. I think the larger implication is: Programming tools are actually pretty good, and the larger process of programmin…

> they're probably going to be evolutionary improvements that build on what we have, rather than throwing everything away in favor of a brand-new approach.

Probably, yes -- but working on a problem starting from the beginning is something more people should do.

It is riskier, for sure. And I am glad their team is doing it.

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